a question to Christians

[SCUMGOD13]

Does this metal cross, cold steel looming hundreds of feet in the air, represent religion to you?
I'm not being an asshole, I don't know what I truly believe about God but this cross is not what I picture. This reminds me of Power, Control, and most all it instills fear. It should stand in front of a Prison not a church.


http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/walklikeme/l_21a01ef8d813e4530c8585ea55954467.jpg

[trancendyce]

I tend to agree, but then I don't id as christian.

[spinetingler]

Does this metal cross, cold steel looming hundreds of feet in the air, represent religion to you?

Not especially.
Only in the most limited representational sense.

[fluffy]

thats where they crucified Optimus Prime. damn Decepticons.

[annieO]

I don't know, but the one that stands on I-75 on your way to Kentucky (can't remember the exit right now) and looms forbiddingly, casting its holy shadow across the HUGE XXX adult bookstore next door makes me laugh everytime I see it.

The guy that owns the lot next to the bookstore started with a much less imposing 25 foot cross, but it didn't seem to do the trick so he invested in this monstrosity of guilt to try to dissuade its patrons. Or maybe its to ward off any lust from creeping across the shared property line.

Whatever, it doesn't seem to have hurt the bookstore's business any as they recently expanded.

[Hank IV]

It says "Lion's Den Adult Superstore this exit. Truckers welcome" to me. Where you see the giant, you see the giant porn store.

[thedisobedients]

Isn't that the monstrosity off 75 down by Loudon? That stuff always makes me blink - passin the plate to build useless crap like that and calling it "gods work".

[Carl Snow]

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/walklikeme/l_21a01ef8d813e4530c8585ea55954467.jpg

...all this confusion over a Movie Prop.
YaSee, the next Godzilla V Mothra movie is being filmed here. After Mothra dies by being stomped on all over Y-12 by Godzilla, Mecha-Godzilla enters the scene.
anyways ... (i dont wanna spoil the plot) Godzilla ends up letting Mecha-Godzilla
crucify him on the Mecha-Cross where he will give his life for action figures and late nite movie-goers everywhere.

but seriously .. i'm a sorta-christian and YES that big abomination needs to go (the huge cross not Godzilla)

[smalc]

but, but, but some heathens may see it and have an interstate conversion.

I consider myself christian, but I just ain't got that missionary zeal.

[Gina]

I don't know, but the one that stands on I-75 on your way to Kentucky (can't remember the exit right now) and looms forbiddingly, casting its holy shadow across the HUGE XXX adult bookstore next door makes me laugh everytime I see it.

The guy that owns the lot next to the bookstore started with a much less imposing 25 foot cross, but it didn't seem to do the trick so he invested in this monstrosity of guilt to try to dissuade its patrons. Or maybe its to ward off any lust from creeping across the shared property line.

Whatever, it doesn't seem to have hurt the bookstore's business any as they recently expanded.

I think it's the Oneida exit. I get a big laugh out of it everytime I see it.

[relentless1]

It is an icon chosen to represent the Christian church. It is not intended to represent God, it is intended to represent Christ, or more specifically, it is a reminder of the price paid by Christ for mankind's salvation. So, answering as a Christian, I would have to say no, it does not represent "religion" when put in plain terms like that.

[F-Stop]

It's a great symbol of the "Consumer Christian". My crucifix is bigger than yours, and i've got more Hummers (that's Humvee, you heathens!) in the deacons row.

I tend to wonder what percentage of Christians are consumer Christians? My guess is that it's pretty high.

(full disclosing Agnostic here)

[fluffy]

as an atheist, the giant crosses dont offend me nearly as much as the megachurches. the fact that all that money was spent so that people can once a week sit in a top of the line stadium instead of, oh i dont know, feed and house the homeless shows the hypocrisy of a lot of the modern christian community. they are more concerned with showing off their flashiness and deep wallets than concern for the less fortunate. odd seeing is dont think god would approve;

Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.
-Matthew 19:23-24

I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.-Matthew 25:31-45


not to mention that churches are tax exempt, so they dont even pony up any dough like other corporations do to pay for some of the goverment subsidized wellfare programs that DO help the poor.

[fluffy]

It's a great symbol of the "Consumer Christian".

speaking of;

http://www.forbes.com/2003/09/17/cz_lk_0917megachurch.html

[jack frost]

I dunno man, that looks like a pretty badass piece of industrial art to me.

No more offensive than the passing of a taxi.

[Gina]

as an atheist, the giant crosses dont offend me nearly as much as the megachurches. the fact that all that money was spent so that people can once a week sit in a top of the line stadium instead of, oh i dont know, feed and house the homeless shows the hypocrisy of a lot of the modern christian community. they are more concerned with showing off their flashiness and deep wallets than concern for the less fortunate. odd seeing is dont think god would approve;

Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.
-Matthew 19:23-24

I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.-Matthew 25:31-45


not to mention that churches are tax exempt, so they dont even pony up any dough like other corporations do to pay for some of the goverment subsidized wellfare programs that DO help the poor.

A cube for you :)

[fluffy]

It is an icon chosen to represent the Christian church. It is not intended to represent God, it is intended to represent Christ, or more specifically, it is a reminder of the price paid by Christ for mankind's salvation.


really? jesus was 200 feet tall and carried and was crucifed on an cross made of steel and mirrors? i went to a church that had a person-sized cross made of wood behind the altar and it was more of a true reminder about christ's sacrifice than that thing. thats like claiming that gatlinburg is an accurate example of what life in the smoky mountains is really like or that las vegas is a historical representation of egypt because its got pyramids and a sphynx. all flash, no substance.

[pixeljockey]

I dunno man, that looks like a pretty badass piece of industrial art to me.

you need to get out more

[spinetingler]

gatlinburg is an accurate example of what life in the smoky mountains

The Smoky Mts of Germany, I hink.

[trancendyce]

"really? jesus was 200 feet tall and carried and was crucifed on an cross made of steel and mirrors?"

No, that was Madonna!

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/05/madonna220506_228x306.jpg

[skirob]

There are a few around here. One is in Loudon Co heading south, there is one going towards Nashville near the plateau, another is towards Oneida/Lafollete, and then there is one in Pigeon Forge just off of Wears Valley.
I find them ugly and as polluting as some ugly ass billboard. My thoughts on seeing the one in Wears Valley near at the foothills of the mountains was this: From a Christian perspective, why does this church think that they need to pollute the landscape with another eyesore to remind visitors of God when in the background there is a beautiful view of the mountains? If they can see God in a metal cross and not in a mountainous landscape, then their view of God is obviously cloudy.

[relentless1]

really? jesus was 200 feet tall and carried and was crucifed on an cross made of steel and mirrors? i went to a church that had a person-sized cross made of wood behind the altar and it was more of a true reminder about christ's sacrifice than that thing. thats like claiming that gatlinburg is an accurate example of what life in the smoky mountains is really like or that las vegas is a historical representation of egypt because its got pyramids and a sphynx. all flash, no substance.

I was referring to the icon itself, not the way that particular congregation has chosen to display it. The question posed was simple, "does it represent religion?" I thought I answered it literally enough. I guess not.

[No Data]

Seeing a cross automatically signals an association with Christ's crucifixion, it doesn't really matter what the cross looks like. At least, in my mind.

I think the whole idea of "who has the biggest cross" "who has the biggest sanctuary" "who has the most people saved per year" "who seemingly loves Jesus the most by showboating" is all a bunch of crap, and the reason that I do not participate in organized religion AT ALL now. I remember hearing at this church once, how if you look around, you could see how God had "blessed them." But they were millions of dollars in debt. They spent all this money on new... stuff. None of it was necessary. They just wanted to try to up their attendance, look more appealing, etc.

People nowadays have it so wrong, they use their religion as an excuse and when they point the finger, they point the "cross" with it.

[jack frost]

People nowadays have it so wrong

Nowadays? Seems to be it has ever been thus; Jesus himself railed against the very same corruption of the church that you mention.

Church has always been a way to sanitize and castrate religion and true spirituality, reducing it to its most brutal and uncomplicated form: exclusion vs. inclusion.

It's really no different than any other way of social organisation, in that way. Which is why I find liberal-atheists who broadly generalise against all "Christians" just as bad as the Fundamentalist closet-cases they themselves claim to hate.

[zulu]

I see the enormous metal crosses along the interstate as a political statement more than anything else. It's a screaming response to the recent political climate. Some in the fundamentalist/conservative Christian community feel kind of embattled these days. A great big steel cross is a way to say "We are Christians here, and you can't take that away from us, no matter how hard you try!" I sincerely hope that whoever gets elected to the Presidency next time will actively seek to tone down the fundamentalist/secularist friction, or at least not provoke it like the current administration.

[I.C.U.]

Does this metal cross, cold steel looming hundreds of feet in the air, represent religion to you?
I'm not being an asshole, I don't know what I truly believe about God but this cross is not what I picture. This reminds me of Power, Control, and most all it instills fear. It should stand in front of a Prison not a church.


http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/walklikeme/l_21a01ef8d813e4530c8585ea55954467.jpg

No. This is not God to me.

And this is not freedom:
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/cornerlounge/c.jpg

you hypocrite!!

signed the believer

[relentless1]

Oh, snap!

[Raincrow]

the next Godzilla V Mothra movie is being filmed here. After Mothra dies by being stomped on all over Y-12 by Godzilla, Mecha-Godzilla enters the scene. .... crucify him on the Mecha-Cross where he will give his life for action figures and late nite movie-goers everywhere.

YES! IT'S GOLD JERRY! IT'S GOLD I TELLYA! The Transformers as the Apostles!

[jah]

This always reminds me of the David Lamotte song "Butler Street (http://www.davidlamotte.com/cdinfo.html#)."


There's a neon cross on a mountain
Saying 'sinners best beware'
That means that somebody went to the trouble
To run power way up there
These mountains speak to my spirit
I guess it kind of blows my mind
To think someone could look at that vista
And think God needs a neon sign

The old man asked me if I was saved
I turned to check his eyes
I didn't see any concern there
And it's sad that I wasn't surprised
No, he was just trying the secret handshake
Where you push until push comes to shove
His hands were deep in his pockets
And his eyes said nothing of love

Sing me a song about Jesus
But please don't sing about the poor
It's already been a long day
I really don't want to hear anymore
Sing me a song about Jesus
That will make me feel happy inside
Sing me a song about forgiveness
That will make this lifestyle feel justified
Sing a song about Jesus

Ran into Jesus this morning
He was down on Butler Street
He was carrying his bedroll
He was standing in line for something to eat
He got splashed by the muddy water
When the shiny hubcaps rolled by
He brushed himself off and chuckled and looked over at me
And said "hey, there but for the grace of God go I"


Sing me a song about Jesus
But please don't sing about the poor
It's already been a long day
I really don't want to hear anymore
Sing me a song about Jesus
That will make me feel happy inside
Sing me a song about forgiveness
That will make this lifestyle feel justified
Sing a song about Jesus

[kag]

speaking of christians, i found this interesting:

http://www.wbir.com/life/programming/local/liveatfive/story.aspx?storyid=45464

i've seen this particular preacher interviewed, and i'm pretty sure that he thinks gays, muslims, etc are hell-bound...but he's come up with an interesting rationalization for his view that my cat is going to heaven

[relentless1]

He's never met my chihuahua, apparently.

[ScottW]

"A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. Do you think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a fuckin' cross? It's kind of like going up to Jackie Onassis with a rifle pendant on."
-Bill Hicks

[catpinw]

my mom told me that's where king kong was buried... mama never lies.

[relentless1]

my mom told me that's where king kong was buried... mama never lies.

Bobby Boucher...is that you????

[catpinw]

Bobby Boucher...is that you????

:)

[smalc]

Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.
-Matthew 19:23-24


I once heard an attempted explanation of this verse in a Sun-dee school class in my youth. The teacher, who I believe was an associate pastor or something, claimed that it is not referring to an actual sewing needle. He claimed the "eye of the needle" was a term for a man-sized door in the larger gates of a city. So, a camel could possibly go through that opening with difficulty.
I've never heard that any where else. I'm pretty certain he read it somewhere and it was not original research on his part. So you can be rich and go to heaven too. Yippee!

[spinetingler]

I once heard an attempted explanation of this verse in a Sun-dee school class in my youth. The teacher, who I believe was an associate pastor or something, claimed that it is not referring to an actual sewing needle. He claimed the "eye of the needle" was a term for a man-sized door in the larger gates of a city. So, a camel could possibly go through that opening with difficulty.
I've never heard that any where else. I'm pretty certain he read it somewhere and it was not original research on his part. So you can be rich and go to heaven too. Yippee!

The Camel and the Needle's Eye

Robert Sheaffer


Many fundamentalists seek to explain away the obvious hostility to wealth in the saying attributed to Jesus, "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24). Fundamentalists today constantly tell each other that the "eye of the needle" was a narrow gate into Jerusalem through which a camel could just barely squeeze, implying that even rich people can get into Heaven, provided that they walk a straight and narrow path.

While believing this no doubt lowers the cognitive dissonance they suffer between the resentment against wealth that is integral to the Christian religion they revere, and their own desire to achieve, it is nonetheless a silly legend, like the alligators in the sewers. The Jerome Biblical Commentary is a standard reference work found in many libraries, written by Catholic scholars. Its commentary on Matthew 19:24 states bluntly, "the figure of the camel and the eye of the needle means exactly what is said; it does not refer to a cable or a small gate of Jerusalem." The Abingdon Interpreter's Bible is a major reference work compiled by Protestant scholars, and its analysis of this passage is in full agreement. Unfortunately for the fundamentalists, the concensus of New Testament scholars is that Matthew's passage barring rich people from heaven means exactly what it says. It remains to be seen how many of them are willing to give up all their wealth in accordance with the ideals they claim to profess.

http://www.debunker.com/texts/needleye.html

[fluffy]

i bet jesus never turned potatoes into candy though!

[spinetingler]

i bet jesus never turned potatoes into candy though!

Water into wine was a much bigger hit at parties.

[Fred_auf_die_Rockwells]

Does this metal cross, cold steel looming hundreds of feet in the air, represent religion to you?
I'm not being an asshole, I don't know what I truly believe about God but this cross is not what I picture. This reminds me of Power, Control, and most all it instills fear. It should stand in front of a Prison not a church.


The problem with loaded questions and statements about emotionally-charged subjects is that they provoke heated responses from otherwise level-headed people. That doesn't open doors for rational discussion so much as it slams them shut. No one's mind is changed. Time is wasted. Or were you just trying to piss Christians off?

And I believe you should have said "I'm not *trying to be* an asshole", as you cannot judge that for yourself; only others can. You brought up an interesting point about the Star Wars Crosses, but the way in which you did only polarizes people rather than encourage serious discourse.

By the way, yes, the cross does represent religion whether you like it or not, just as a giant flag covering the field at the Super Bowl at half time represents America. It might be gaudy, it might be unnecessary, it most likely offends a lot of people, but a second grader could still tell you *exactly* what that cross represents.

[Raincrow]

chihuahua

Those Little Imps of Satan!

[Hayduke]

Any other religions using torture/execution devices as their symbols? It seems like the Christians could have picked something from the positive side of the religion. The fish/vulva thing was nice. Did they even consider the lily?

[Fred_auf_die_Rockwells]

Any other religions using torture/execution devices as their symbols? It seems like the Christians could have picked something from the positive side of the religion. The fish/vulva thing was nice. Did they even consider the lily?

Ah, the FishVulva. I'd never heard it described that way. I think I like it more now.

I don't think the lily was such a Christian symbol when these things were decided way back when. Maybe we can convince all the major Christian churches and denominations to change over now. Major selling point: think of all the money they would make "rebranding".

Heh heh...FishVulva...

Oooh! Good band name!! :)

[ernie]

"really? jesus was 200 feet tall and carried and was crucifed on an cross made of steel and mirrors?"

No, that was Madonna!

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2006/05/madonna220506_228x306.jpg

Have a cube! I'm buyin'!

[ernie]

Originally Posted by fluffy
Truly I tell you, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.
-Matthew 19:23-24I once heard an attempted explanation of this verse in a Sun-dee school class in my youth. The teacher, who I believe was an associate pastor or something, claimed that it is not referring to an actual sewing needle. He claimed the "eye of the needle" was a term for a man-sized door in the larger gates of a city. So, a camel could possibly go through that opening with difficulty.
I've never heard that any where else. I'm pretty certain he read it somewhere and it was not original research on his part. So you can be rich and go to heaven too. Yippee!

I once heard the same bullshit story in an adult Sunday school class. It's amazing the kind of stuff that people come up with in their desperate attempts to dilute Jesus's teachings. The truth is that Jesus ain't easy, no matter what Martin Mull says.

[ernie]

I see the enormous metal crosses along the interstate as a political statement more than anything else.

That is exactly what these giant crosses are: political statements. That's why they make me angry. I resent the conversion of a symbol of my religion to a symbol of a conservative political view that Jesus would have renounced.

[ernie]

Any other religions using torture/execution devices as their symbols?

No, because no other religion professes a belief that God united himself with human suffering and death.

[relentless1]

I resent the conversion of a symbol of my religion to a symbol of a conservative political view that Jesus would have renounced.


Amen! Er..I mean...Yeah!

[relentless1]

Those Little Imps of Satan!

I'm a gonna sic her on youuuu!!!!!

[fluffy]

seriously, im getting a bank loan and putting a billboard on 95 for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[relentless1]

seriously, im getting a bank loan and putting a billboard on 95 for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

You..you...Pastafarian, you!!

[fluffy]

You..you...Pastafarian, you!!


we prefer Noodletarian.

[Ripshod]

seriously, im getting a bank loan and putting a billboard on 95 for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I've often thought about passing the plate and renting a billboard to counter those 'GOD SAID' signs that have cropped up. It would be a good idea to find some of the bible verses they don't teach in sunday school and have them writ large. Here are a couple of suggestions, I wonder if anyone can come up with others. I know there are better ones out there, just don't have a list handy.

Wherein god claims to be the cause of all evil:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7

Wherein god commands the Israelites to commit genocide:
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
- 1 Samuel 15:3

[Hank IV]

MC 900 ft. Jesus

[F-Stop]

seriously, im getting a bank loan and putting a billboard on 95 for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

What are the odds Lamar or Viacom or Clear Channel or who the hell ever would say, "Yeah, we can't rent to you for that purpose..."

Totally unfair :(

[trancendyce]

Any other religions using torture/execution devices as their symbols? It seems like the Christians could have picked something from the positive side of the religion.

I had a philosophy professor who would often say that christians might as well be wearing little electric chairs around their necks.

[trancendyce]

That is exactly what these giant crosses are: political statements.

Agreed! I call it christian imperialistic propaganda.

[Johnny Ringo]

This (http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/2007/05/midwest_luthera.html) has to be good news:

Midwest Lutherans Largely Reject Violence

Chicago - By an almost two-to-one margin, Midwest Lutherans voiced solid opposition to decapitation, suicide bombing, and chemical warfare in a new comprehensive survey of their social attitudes.

The Pew Research survey, conducted May 13-19, queried nearly 2,500 randomly selected Lutherans at flea markets and convenience stores across the Midwest. Interviews were conducted in High Plains Twang, Great Lakes Nasal and Flat Ohio Valley Bland.

"If there is one headline here, it's how remarkably moderate the Lutheran community is," said Pew director Andrew Kohut of the survey, which was co-sponsored by the Council on American-Yooper Relations. "It really paints a picture of a dynamic culture in or somewhere near the American mainstream."

Kohut pointed to one of the study's key findings that only 29% of all respondents agreed that "bloody, random violence against infidels" was "always" or "frequently" justified, versus 56% who said such violence was "seldom" or "never" justified. The approval of violence rose slightly among younger Lutherans and when the hypothetical violence was targeted against Presbyterians, but still fell well short of a majority.

"The only demographic cohort we saw where murderous random violence had a majority support was among 18-35 year old male followers of the Wisconsin Synod," said Kohut. "And that was barely above the margin of error. Even then, fewer than half (41% to 46%) said they would personally volunteer to carry out the violence themselves."

Further bolstering the findings, Kohut noted that fewer than 6% of respondents physically attacked field interviewers during the survey.

Although a majority 87% of respondents agreed that "The world should be brought to submission under global Lutheran conquest and eternal perfect rule," there was a great deal of disagreement on the means to accomplish it. More than 95% supported "pancake breakfasts" and "popcorn fundraisers," but support dropped to less than 80% for "cow tipping" and "T-P'ing infidel houses." Support dropped even more dramatically for more violent means of conquest, such as "suicide bombing" (28%), "decapitation" (24%), and "running over Presbyterians with my Ski-Doo" (23%).

"Taken as a whole, the results show that Midwest Lutherans emphatically support a moderate, mainstream path to world domination," said Kohut. "These folks are well-assimilated into the broad fabric of American society, and unless you are Presbyterian, there is probably very little here to cause concern."

Kohut said that optimism about the results should be tempered by the grim economic realities faced by many in the Lutheran community. Nearly 65% of female survey respondents said they lived more than 30 minutes from the nearest outlet mall, while a strong majority of males said they were "often" or "sometimes" worried about having enough money for green fees and Leinenkugel.

Equally disturbing, many respondents reported experiencing discrimination at the hands of non-Lutherans. Frequently cited examples of non-Lutheran bigotry included "Got all nose-in-the-air like" (48%), "Made personal remarks about my hot dish" (37%), "Wouldn't let me borrow their combine head" (36%), and "Wouldn't stand still so I could kill them" (22%).

"I think it's important for all of us to remain vigilant against this kind of virulent anti-Lutheran backlash, and make sure they feel a welcome part of our society," said Kohut.

Ted Jarvenpaa, spokesman for CAYR, agreed.

"Ya, we're done doin' dat assimilatin' eh?" said Jarvenpaa. "Now it's your turn."

[spinetingler]

I've often thought about passing the plate and renting a billboard to counter those 'GOD SAID' signs that have cropped up. It would be a good idea to find some of the bible verses they don't teach in sunday school and have them writ large. Here are a couple of suggestions, I wonder if anyone can come up with others. I know there are better ones out there, just don't have a list handy.

Wherein god claims to be the cause of all evil:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
—Isaiah 45:7

Wherein god commands the Israelites to commit genocide:
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
- 1 Samuel 15:3

Get some of the sex ones from the Song of Solomon. That usually freaks the fundies out.

[I.C.U.]

"I wonder if anyone can come up with others. I know there are better ones out there, just don't have a list handy."

I double dog dare you to read the new testament and find them for yourself.

I wonder how many people have actually read it. I mean, people spend days, maybe months even, reading every little piece of literature if they are choosing cabinets, a paint color, a car, a gameboy..milk.

Start a thread on computers and everybody is all over it showing off their deep pool of skillz but for the most part these same peeps seem to have the spiritual depth of a divot.

I've read it and I've made a personal choice to believe in one, living God and I believe that the mission of Jesus was divine. If what I've read is accurate I thank y'all for giving me the chance to type that out loud.

If a tornado is headed for your house it's gonna knock it down whether you watched the weather report or not. You can go outside and mow the yard while it's coming if you want to. Then, your house is destroyed, you're hanging from a tree, your leg is at the neighbors. The weather report was right there all along. Why didn't you listen? Granted a house can be rebuilt but there you are, ole one leg..and why?

[sgt. pepper]

[QUOTE=C.U. AttheCorner;130569]

I've read it and I've made a personal choice to believe in one, living God and I believe that the mission of Jesus was divine. If what I've read is accurate I thank y'all for giving me the chance to type that out loud.


See above... it's all about a personal choice to follow a sovereign God. The power of the scriptures is not in trying to prove that you are right or that you understand all that God has done or will do. It is instead realizing that the saving work has been done through the cross, and God wins. Case closed. God is sovereign and we're not. "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever, Amen."

[pixeljockey]

but a second grader could still tell you *exactly* what that cross represents.

i don't know.... my daughter was in 3rd or 4th grade when she fully understood that a cross is a symbol for one of the many legends, fables, and self-help systems that attempt to help us navigate through the minefields of our growing self-awareness

a second grader would probably just regurgitate the legend... no?
that doesn't seem *exact*.

[thedisobedients]

hehe, when I was in second or third grade I caught a piece of a Geraldo special featuring kids who had supposedly survived the now infamous "Satanic Ritual Abuse" that was such a great rumor mill maker in the 80s. One kid drew a rough approximation of a cross and said "They stuck it up muh butt, and boy did it hurt!"

For a few weeks I thought that's what crosses were actually for. They did, after all, come in all sizes! So I was convinced that not only did "strangers" offer kids candy and kidnap them, they stuck crosses up their butts. :)

[thedisobedients]

You know, I almost wish I hadn't posted that. Now all I can think of is the Fat Albert & The Cosby Kids characters playing their little back-alley instruments and singing "Crosses hurt when they up your butt, oh yeah!" :)

[catpinw]

seriously, im getting a bank loan and putting a billboard on 95 for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

oh please, please, please do that... we need one here too.

His noodly appendage needs to touch the people of east tennessee.

[pixeljockey]

You know, I almost wish I hadn't posted that.

it'sba okayba

[relentless1]

"I wonder if anyone can come up with others. I know there are better ones out there, just don't have a list handy."

I double dog dare you to read the new testament and find them for yourself.

I wonder how many people have actually read it. I mean, people spend days, maybe months even, reading every little piece of literature if they are choosing cabinets, a paint color, a car, a gameboy..milk.

Start a thread on computers and everybody is all over it showing off their deep pool of skillz but for the most part these same peeps seem to have the spiritual depth of a divot.

I've read it and I've made a personal choice to believe in one, living God and I believe that the mission of Jesus was divine. If what I've read is accurate I thank y'all for giving me the chance to type that out loud.

If a tornado is headed for your house it's gonna knock it down whether you watched the weather report or not. You can go outside and mow the yard while it's coming if you want to. Then, your house is destroyed, you're hanging from a tree, your leg is at the neighbors. The weather report was right there all along. Why didn't you listen? Granted a house can be rebuilt but there you are, ole one leg..and why?

Yeppers.

I have noticed that many people, Christians and Non-Christians, like to pretend the New Testament doesn't exist. It seems to me that ultra conservative Christians look to the Old Testament so they can continue to threaten with fire and brimstone and use it for their own purposes, and Non-Christians look to it because it makes for better jokes and they can use it for their own purposes. If a person actually sat down and read it, casting preconceived notions aside (which I know is hard), they would realize there's not a whole lot to "interpret", and even if that person wasn't moved enough by it to take it into their heart, I think the urge to ridicule might be lessened a bit.

I am a Christian, but despite what many people (and many people on this board) may think, I am not a sheep. It's a conscious decision that I spent years contemplating and it's my own personal experience that has helped to shape my belief. I see it as a sign of ignorance when a person makes a blanket statement about "Christians", just as I see it as a sign of ignorance when a person makes a blanket statement about a particular race of people, or people from a particular region of the country. There is no difference, and the sooner people begin to realize this the better.

I've always made an effort to stay out of religious discussion, especially on the internet. But I felt especially compelled to make the above statements and, since I've merely stated my personal feelings on the subject, I hope that those feelings are respected and I don't become sorry I broke my own rule.

[DanceDiva]

Wherein god commands the Israelites to commit genocide:
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
- 1 Samuel 15:3

Just to clarify real quick, and then we can return to the discussion. The Amalekites attacked the Israelites as they were on their way out of Egypt. They preyed upon the older, slower-moving members of the tribe in particular. This made them Public Enemy #1 to the Jews. Saul was told to kill the Amalekite king, he didn't do it, and he lost his throne to Samuel, who did do it. Later on when the plot to exterminate the Jews is discovered by Esther, the lead man in that deal, Haman, also happens to be an Amalekite. (He was actually called an "Agagite," which they think is a reference to Agag, a one-time Amalekite king.)

The only reason I bring this up is because, as happens often with scripture, verses are taken way out of context to create some sort of proof of "this is what the Bible says."

And also, right-wing conservatives are far more guilty of this than anyone else, in my experience.

Finally, the Old Testament is worlds and years away from the New Testament in a study of how God operates. That's why it can at times be dangerous for religious fundies to cite the old law regarding whatever issue we're up against today. Different times, different customs, and different reasons for doing stuff.

[James]

The cross is a symbol of a particularly gruesome way of executing someone by displaying them publicly while they die a slow painful death. Sort of a way of saying, "You mess with us and this is what will happen to you."

At least that's what I think of ever time I see a cross.

[Ripshod]

I double dog dare you to read the new testament and find them for yourself.
I wonder how many people have actually read it.
Yes, I have read it. Both old and new testaments. Twice on the old and four times the new. And I read the parts I'd highlighted several more times.

You see, I used to be a christian. I attended a private christian school where we had daily bible classes. When I found that my minister and my bible teacher couldn't answer my questions I decided I'd have to answer them myself. I took my religion very seriously and I wasn't about to settle for vague answers and contradictions. So I read it.

I've read it and I've made a personal choice to believe in one, living God and I believe that the mission of Jesus was divine. If what I've read is accurate I thank y'all for giving me the chance to type that out loud.
That's funny. When I read it, I came to the conclusion that this 'god' could be nothing more than a vindictive, cruel and dishonest... oh what's the word... asshole. Yeah, that's it.

When I started reading the bible, I had no clue or wish that I'd become disillusioned with the whole thing. It just turned out that way.

[Fred_auf_die_Rockwells]

hehe, when I was in second or third grade I caught a piece of a Geraldo special featuring kids who had supposedly survived the now infamous "Satanic Ritual Abuse" that was such a great rumor mill maker in the 80s. One kid drew a rough approximation of a cross and said "They stuck it up muh butt, and boy did it hurt!"

Oh, holy crap, I saw that too. It was a warping experience. Just the thought of it makes me want to suggest to the Church that they produce only crosses with no sharp edges or points.

[Ripshod]

Just to clarify real quick, and then we can return to the discussion. The Amalekites attacked the Israelites as they were on their way out of Egypt. ...
So there ya go. The perfect excuse for utter genocide. Those damn Amalekites must've had their children and infants out there throwing stones at Israelites.

The only reason I bring this up is because, as happens often with scripture, verses are taken way out of context to create some sort of proof of "this is what the Bible says."
So there's a context in which "Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants" can be construed as the words of a loving, just god? Why don't you explain that one to me?

[relentless1]

That's funny. When I read it, I came to the conclusion that this 'god' could be nothing more than a vindictive, cruel and dishonest... oh what's the word... asshole. Yeah, that's it.


Why is it funny? Are you really so surprised that another intelligent person might come to a different conclusion than you? I respect the way you feel about it, but I have to wonder if you realize how disrespectful your choice of words was. If that wasn't your intention, I'm sorry I read it that way.

[pixeljockey]

So there's a context

hello... chosen people! god is on the israelites like white on manna.

[SnM]

Re: Amalekites
Excerpt from: God Joins an Anger Management Group

Setting: a nondescript room in which a half-dozen nondescript individuals, some sipping coffee from Styrofoam cups, have seated themselves among a dozen chairs arranged in a semicircle, facing a central chair; before this chair stands a slight, bearded, bespectacled middle-aged male wearing a white lab coat.

Group counselor (the bearded, bespectacled individual): Hello, everybody! Today, we're welcoming a new member to our Angerholics Anonymous group. (gestures to figure approaching from doorway: billowing white robe, flowing white beard and fierce white eyebrows frame an imperiously craggy face)

God (whispering to counselor): Uh, what do I do?

GC (gently): Just take a place in the group, introduce yourself, and tell us about yourself, about why you are here.

God (to GC): OK. (moves to stand in front of a chair, then, to group): Ahem, hi, I'm God Alm-

GC (pleasantly, but firmly): First names only, God.

God: Ah, OK. Well, anyway, I'm God.

Group: Hi, God!!!

God: But I'm also known as Yahweh, Jehovah, The Lo-

GC: First names only, The. So you have a lot of street names? Do you suppose that tells us more about you than just one name? Which name do you prefer?

God: Uh, God will do, I guess...

GC: So! Tell us about yourself?

God: Well, it's not really so much about Me. I mean, My Son, He wanted Me to come here.

GC: Can you tell us why he might have wanted that?

God (long pause): Well, I guess maybe He thinks I have...issues...

GC: What kind of issues?

God: Well, you have to look at it from My Perspective. My People, the Israelite tribe-

GC: Your tribe? Are these your homeboys? Is your gang called the Israelites?

God (staring): Excuse me?

GC: Never mind. I apologize for interrupting. I'm just trying to be sure we understand where you're coming from.

God (to GC): From heaven, thank you. (resuming to group): So you have to understand, My People, the Israelites, were surrounded on every side by enemies. So I had to be...extreme with some of them... (long pause)

GC (gently): Tell the group what you did, God.

God: Well, a lot of things. More than I can remember, really. For instance, let's see now, off the top of my head...I had Moses put to the sword 3,000 Israelites for worshipping the golden calf. Later I had the Israelites execute all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, and hold the 32,000 remaining virgins as booty, and I do mean booty. I let him decide how to determine who was a virgin. I bet he enjoyed that! (chuckles, pausing as if thinking back).

Anyway, that was maybe, hmmm, 96,000 Midianites wiped out. Then my boy, Joshua, I had him go put the hit on all the people of Ai, all 12,000 men and women. After that the cities of Gibeon, Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir fell to Joshua's forces. He left no survivors, then went on to destroy the large city of Hazor. Then it was 10,000 Canaanites killed at the Battle of Bezek, 10,000 or so Moabites at the Jordan River, and 120,000 Midianite soldiers wasted by Gideon.

I decided my gang was getting a little full of itself after that, so just for fun I stirred up a little trouble in the Israelite ranks, such that my main man Benjamin was attacked by the other Israelite tribes and 25,000 died in the ensuing carnage. A lot more Israelites fell after that: 4,000 at the first Battle of Ebenezer, 30,000 in the second battle.

I liked David, so I let him get back to the business of slaughtering folks outside the tribe: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites he killed in two battles, and 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers he turn into pincushions at Helam. But 20,000 Israelites under that fool Absalom were killed at Ephraim.

Then there were the 100,000 Arameans the Israelites slaughtered at Battle of Aphek, and I tossed in a collapsing wall to take out another 27,000. Then there was more infighting, so Judah inflicted 500,000 casualties on the Israleites, and Amaziah, king of Judah, in a battle, he killed 10,000 from Seir and executed another 10,000 prisoners of war for good measure. And last, Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans. Ahhhh, good times, good times.

GC: So you have done some harsh, extreme, some might even say cruel things. But sometimes these actions you take or order, they are contradictory?

God: Not to My Eyes.

GC: OK, we'll move on from that. Is there anything else?

God: Oh, yes, lots more. Like I said, more than I can remember. That’s just what got written down...

[ernie]

So there ya go. The perfect excuse for utter genocide. Those damn Amalekites must've had their children and infants out there throwing stones at Israelites


So there's a context in which "Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants" can be construed as the words of a loving, just god? Why don't you explain that one to me?

I am shocked, shocked!, to dsicover that tribal peoples commited wholesale slaughter of the enemies in the 13th or 14th century B.C.

[Fred_auf_die_Rockwells]

i don't know.... my daughter was in 3rd or 4th grade when she fully understood that a cross is a symbol for one of the many legends, fables, and self-help systems that attempt to help us navigate through the minefields of our growing self-awareness

a second grader would probably just regurgitate the legend... no?
that doesn't seem *exact*.

The cross is a symbol of Christianity...even an ugly cross. I am not a Christian. The cross bares no personal significance to me. But when I was in second grade, I had read the Bible (well...the Picture Bible...it's somewhat condensed but has bitchin' pictures) I knew what the cross was a symbol for.

Are you nitpicking me??? :)

[gypsy]

I am shocked, shocked!, to dsicover that tribal peoples commited wholesale slaughter of the enemies in the 13th or 14th century B.C.

or in the 21st century a.d. for that matter.

but i'm not sure "god" can really get a pass from historical context. taking a historicist view of the bible (the view taken by us non-believers) sort of necessitates seeing it as a collection of laws, myths, folktales, historical accounts, etc etc. -- and more or less obviates taking its claims to supernatural divinity seriously. if you're going to in any way credit it as a source of supernatural truth, i'm not sure you can also claim historical context. (i.e. omniscient creators of the universe who stand outside time and space don't get to say "everyone was doin it.")

as for the new testament and christ's teachings and everything, they're interesting and enlightened (some of them anyway), but -- again, from a historicist viewpoint -- not all that exceptional when you consider the total run of human philosophy. that is, there is little that is valuable in the teachings of christ that you can't find elaborated on in greater depth and with greater candor elsewhere in the canon. if it weren't for the claims to divinity, i think he would seem like a significant but not necessarily first-tier thinker. (not to mention a lousy political prognosticator -- the meek shall inherit the earth o rly?)

[spinetingler]

Those damn Amalekites must've had their children and infants out there throwing stones at Israelites.

Well, it still happens:
http://backspin.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/child1.JPG
http://austin.indymedia.org/usermedia/image/6/child-soldier.jpg

but I prefer
http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/nuns_w_guns.jpg

[I.C.U.]

When I started reading the bible, I had no clue or wish that I'd become disillusioned with the whole thing. It just turned out that way.

Yeah, I went through that as well. Pardon the pun but after reading of Jesus' expectations of the faithful it seemed that we were damned if we did and damned if we didn't.

I've read the new testament several times as well and, I don't know, things just sunk in in a different way this time through. If we as adults are offended when some little brat is ungrateful about their birthday present how must a deity that created everything feel? I'll bet the soundtrack from earth is one giant moan.

At this point I'm starting to understand from a broader perspective why when you put a bird that was born in a cage out on a tree branch it just sits there.

You've read it so you know that peeps being for and against it are equal parts of the plan.

[fluffy]

I came to the conclusion that this 'god' could be nothing more than a vindictive, cruel and dishonest... oh what's the word... asshole.

When I started reading the bible, I had no clue or wish that I'd become disillusioned with the whole thing. It just turned out that way.


so then did you perhaps entertain the notion of switching religions, or give up on religion altogether? i ask because as an atheist myself im always curious as to what causes others to dissent.

[fluffy]

I respect the way you feel about it, but I have to wonder if you realize how disrespectful your choice of words was. If that wasn't your intention, I'm sorry I read it that way.

im not sure you understand how disprespectful it is to be an atheist in a country that is overwhelming blatantly christian, to the point where the majority of christians seem to feel absolutely no qualms about imposing theology into each and every american's personal life.

from the neighbors that wring their hands that you dont take your kids to church on sundays to the evangelists that have the president's ear, a slight against a christian pales in comparion to the inverse.

and dont tell me that "its a few christian crazies that are like that"; just because your average christian isnt screaming from the pulpit about the evils of abortion and gay marriage doesnt mean that they wouldnt be happy if both were outlawed permanently in a split second.

its funny-i had an issue of Time a while back that had an ad in it about "christian persecution". please. wtf does a christian have to feel persecuted about?! hell, you cant hardly get elected into any office in this country if you dont profess a dependence on a god of some sort(2 muslims and a buddist in the house of reps, if im not mistaken). if anyone has a right to feel persecuted, its the non-believers. after all we are in a stark minority and weird almost no power or influence.

[Fred_auf_die_Rockwells]

and dont tell me that "its a few christian crazies that are like that"; just because your average christian isnt screaming from the pulpit about the evils of abortion and gay marriage doesnt mean that they wouldnt be happy if both were outlawed permanently in a split second.



Actually, I've had quite the opposite experience. Most Christians I've spoken with on a one-on-one basis know someone (often a loved one) who is gay or who has had an abortion. And they hate any gay political group and Planned Parenthood and NOW, etc, etc. But when it comes to individuals, most Christians I know would rather leave it up to God and keep out of it. I know very few ban-gay-marriage outlaw-abortion Christians. They just aren't gay (they think) and they (try) not to get in a position where they would need to get an abortion.

I think you do a disservice to the average Christian, who is your average nice person.

[spinetingler]

just because your average christian isnt screaming from the pulpit about the evils of abortion and gay marriage doesnt mean that they wouldnt be happy if both were outlawed permanently in a split second.



Have you looked at a public opinion poll in the last 10 years? Americans by a large majority support legal abortion. If Christians are that dominant in the population, that means that a majority of Christians support legal abortion.

[Ripshod]

Why is it funny? Are you really so surprised that another intelligent person might come to a different conclusion than you?
Not surprised, amused. Don't forget that I used to believe like you.

I respect the way you feel about it, but I have to wonder if you realize how disrespectful your choice of words was. If that wasn't your intention, I'm sorry I read it that way.
I am disrespectful of the biblical god. I am respectful of your belief and your right to hold those beliefs. I do not respect the beliefs themselves as they would pertain to myself.

[fluffy]

Actually, I've had quite the opposite experience. Most Christians I've spoken with on a one-on-one basis know someone (often a loved one) who is gay or who has had an abortion. And they hate any gay political group and Planned Parenthood and NOW, etc, etc. But when it comes to individuals, most Christians I know would rather leave it up to God and keep out of it. I know very few ban-gay-marriage outlaw-abortion Christians. They just aren't gay (they think) and they (try) not to get in a position where they would need to get an abortion.

I think you do a disservice to the average Christian, who is your average nice person.

im not saying christians are inherently evil or vindictive. its their claim that this or that is a sin, and the unquestioning of that platform outside of maybe some shrugged shoulders that basically says "well, its gods will" that annoys me.

and ok maybe, one on one, christians lower their defenses enough to say that a couple of gays together arent that big of a deal. but when push comes to shove and the group mentality kicks in(why else have 5000 people in the same building ever sunday?), im willing to bet they stick with the herd.

also, you talk as if people dont just say what others want to hear. to you, as possibly someone who isnt against gay marriage or abortion, they might say that they dont mind those things. then they might turn around to the minister and roll their eyes. i get the feeling you are leaving human nature out of the equation.

my mother and my parents-in-law are great people and deeply religious. doesnt mean they dont mind hoping gays will burn in hell for eternity or that abortion should be outlawed. you can be a nice person about some things and downright mean about others. thats just the way we all are. why make excuses for that?

[Fred_auf_die_Rockwells]

im not saying christians are inherently evil or vindictive. its their claim that this or that is a sin, and the unquestioning of that platform outside of maybe some shrugged shoulders that basically says "well, its gods will" that annoys me.

and ok maybe, one on one, christians lower their defenses enough to say that a couple of gays together arent that big of a deal. but when push comes to shove and the group mentality kicks in(why else have 5000 people in the same building ever sunday?), im willing to bet they stick with the herd.

also, you talk as if people dont just say what others want to hear. to you, as possibly someone who isnt against gay marriage or abortion, they might say that they dont mind those things. then they might turn around to the minister and roll their eyes. i get the feeling you are leaving human nature out of the equation.

my mother and my parents-in-law are great people and deeply religious. doesnt mean they dont mind hoping gays will burn in hell for eternity or that abortion should be outlawed. you can be a nice person about some things and downright mean about others. thats just the way we all are. why make excuses for that?

I'm not trying to make any excuses and you make very valid points. The "group mentality" thing is especially troublesome. And yes, human nature needs to be factored in, naturally. But your supposition means that a lot of friends and family members have lied to me (even about something they know I disagree with them about)...something I'm not willing to believe.

Spinetingler mentioned that a majority of Americans believe abortion should be legal. A lot of those people *must* be Christians (as a majority of Americans are)...so maybe they're putting their personal beliefs aside for what they consider a greater good (legal abortions that kill one fetus rather than illegal ones that can kill both fetus and mama)...and like I said, leaving the rest up to God.

[fluffy]

Have you looked at a public opinion poll in the last 10 years? Americans by a large majority support legal abortion. If Christians are that dominant in the population, that means that a majority of Christians support legal abortion.

and yet i didnt hear much public opposition to the outlawing of partial birth abortion recently, even though it incuded no exceptions for a mother's health.

[spinetingler]

and yet i didnt hear much public opposition to the outlawing of partial birth abortion recently, even though it incuded no exceptions for a mother's health.

Stop watchin' Fox News, then.


ooh, zing!

[Hildegard]

I had a philosophy professor who would often say that christians might as well be wearing little electric chairs around their necks.

He a thief if he didn't credit that line to Lenny Bruce.

[gypsy]

I am disrespectful of the biblical god.

yeah i think that's one of the key points of christopher hitchens' new book -- not just that he doesn't believe the biblical god exists, but how terrible for the universe it would be if he did, given what the book tells us about his pathological authoritarianism.

[annieO]

I think Fluffy has a good point about "Christian persecution". Although I think even he is talking in extremes.

What about the everyday Judeo-Christian influences in our society. For an obivious example, the "In God We Trust" on our currency. The Pledge of Allegience. Having to swear oaths to God in a court of law on a Bible (which, for an atheist, is kinda like asking a Christian to swear an oath on Grim's Fairy Tales to Rose Red). Blue Laws! Most business Holidays being associated with some Religious holiday. It is permissable in the public school system to get an excused absence by proving that the day is of some religious import to the child. In fact, you can use the "against/for my religion" almost anywhere.

At least at the school my children attend (public), there is a definite prejudice towards anyone that does not profess some sort of belief in God. I am mystified by much of what is taught in Knox County. It seriously borders on religious instruction.

I know that this has been discussed here before, but the whole idea of a court of law (the state) requiring someone to attend a 12-step program (AA - based on the whole "higher power" concept) borders on, if not crosses over, the whole separation issue. But noone thinks anything of it.

Having been on both sides of this fence, I can tell you that, as a Christian, it is easy to miss exactly how Christianity-centric our society really is. Just ask the Jehovah's Witness kids that have to sit outside and not participate in the Christmas festivities at school or the school sponsered Easter Egg hunt(I know it has no religious basis, but it wouldn't exist if Christians didn't celebrate Easter). I don't know of many atheists that force their children to sit out these events, but it doesn't change the fact that it is not in line with what they believe.

[Ripshod]

so then did you perhaps entertain the notion of switching religions, or give up on religion altogether? i ask because as an atheist myself im always curious as to what causes others to dissent.

After reading and rereading what was supposed to be all I'd ever know about life, the universe and everything, I was confused and shaken. I knew I couldn't please god no matter what I did. There was a time when I felt that I might as well kill myself because I was just going to dig myself into a sinful hole I could never climb out of. I prayed thirty times a day because it seemed that every other thought was probably offensive to god. I knew that god would eventually lose patience with me (apparently it does happen - look it up) and though I never seriously contemplated suicide, things did look very bleak for a while there with no prospects for it getting any better.

Then I moved away from Tennessee. Two things I learned in California - Coors (then not available in TN and considered to be the best beer ever) sucks , and you don't have to believe in a god at all to be a wonderful person. I don't know that I ever would have realized that if I'd stayed in Tennessee. Well I would've tasted Coors eventually, but I never would have met the people I met there, and probably would never have had personal conversations with such philosophically advanced, irreligious people. Maybe I'd have run into some in college, but I doubt that I'd have let myself conceive of such a thing as disbelief had it not been for the huge cultural and personal changes that being out on my own in a strange place caused.

How did you deconvert, Fluffy? Or were you never indoctrinated at all?

[Randall]

Ten pages into the thread, and Chris Scum must have not turned on his computer since he started all of this.

[fluffy]

your supposition means that a lot of friends and family members have lied to me (even about something they know I disagree with them about)...something I'm not willing to believe.

my father in law is a dyed in the wool republican. i can talk till im blue in the face about some of the accomplishments of the democrats(and vice versa), and he will nod and say that i might have a point and that i make a good case. and until the day he dies he will vote GOP. end of story. its part of who he is. he humors me, might even take some of what i say to heart. but in the end he is who he is.

who's to say its not the same for your friends and family about abortion? have any of them ever donated to a pro-choice organization? voted for a pro-choice candidate? spoken up in a church meeting about how abortion should stay legal? im guessing in most cases, no. thats the way its been for me talking to religious friends and family about abortion.


so maybe they're putting their personal beliefs aside for what they consider a greater good (legal abortions that kill one fetus rather than illegal ones that can kill both fetus and mama)...and like I said, leaving the rest up to God.

and thats a great way to wash our hands of responsibilty, isnt it? should we ignore global warming too, leaving it up to god as some christians have said we should do? we also elected in a person to run this country who has a known fondness for capital punishment and cost a lot of innocent life, directly or not. and then we gave him another 4 years to do more of the same. how, as a christian nation, could we let that happen? was he for the greater good? or did we just elect him because he was a fellow christian, he was "in the club" regardless of his past and current discretions?

i guess im just failing to see the greater good being enacted anymore. "leaving it up to god" just sounds kinda lazy.

[Ripshod]

I am shocked, shocked!, to dsicover that tribal peoples commited wholesale slaughter of the enemies in the 13th or 14th century B.C.

When I, an inquisitive and desperately anxious teenager, read that passage and the many others like it, I wasn't at all shocked that primitive cultures had behaved that way toward one another. What threw me was the fact that the same god which loved me and everyone, sheltered us from harm and gave his own son for me, would tell someone to do such an awful thing. Yeah, I'd say it's shocking. It at least knocks that god down a notch or two in the credibility category.

[mehem]

woof...woof,woof...woof,woof,woof...

[relentless1]

I support gay marriage. I am ADAMANTLY against making abortion illegal. Why? Because I have respect for other people and I believe in free will. Also, I do not believe that I have a duty, or really, a right to judge others. God has a big job and I don't want it.
You're never going to see the "herd mentality" because the herd already tried to get me, they failed, and the few other Christians I know that will have anything to do with me do so because they are like me.
And apart from it all, dammit, I think I'm pretty likeable.

[I.C.U.]

If your qualms are about God striking down the incorrigibly wicked, BC, you should probably take it up with Jews. You are off the mark addressing this to Christians.

"please. wtf does a christian have to feel persecuted about?"

You've confused Christian w/ the hype and the propagandists (is that a word?). When one does claim to be a Christian and say coo-coo things like "I believe in a living God" you're instantly off the grid in cool school. There's this collective eye-roll and you're instantly lumped in with "them, they".

Fluffy you're tails and Swaggert is heads..same coin..same mindset.

[fluffy]

I think Fluffy has a good point about "Christian persecution". Although I think even he is talking in extremes.Having been on both sides of this fence, I can tell you that, as a Christian, it is easy to miss exactly how Christianity-centric our society really is. Just ask the Jehovah's Witness kids that have to sit outside and not participate in the Christmas festivities at school or the school sponsered Easter Egg hunt(I know it has no religious basis, but it wouldn't exist if Christians didn't celebrate Easter). I don't know of many atheists that force their children to sit out these events, but it doesn't change the fact that it is not in line with what they believe.


there was an episode(pretty sure im thinking of the right episode) of 30 Days last year where an christian went to go live with a muslim family for a month(obviously). one thing he did was he met up with a group of about 4 atheists at a local coffee shop. after a short discussion that had been going completely civil, the guy got hotheaded to the point where he more or less accused the others of ganging up on him and persecuting him. i just had to laugh, seeing as that in the bigger picture of this country, they are completely more persecuted than he is.

its sort of like when conservatives rail about the evils of hollywood, as if anyone actually gives a shit about what sean penn or susan sarandon thinks. like i told a republican co-worker yesterday; i dont know why everytime i turn on the Factor, bill is admonishing rosie o'donnell. i dont know anyone, no matter how liberal, who cares what her political views are. she is such an insignificant part of the picture. just as atheists are. which is why i dont understand christians have a right to feel persecuted in this country.

[relentless1]

It at least knocks that god down a notch or two in the credibility category.

Has the opposite effect on me, since we are supposed to be made in his image.

[fluffy]

Having been on both sides of this fence, I can tell you that, as a Christian, it is easy to miss exactly how Christianity-centric our society really is. Just ask the Jehovah's Witness kids that have to sit outside and not participate in the Christmas festivities at school or the school sponsered Easter Egg hunt(I know it has no religious basis, but it wouldn't exist if Christians didn't celebrate Easter). I don't know of many atheists that force their children to sit out these events, but it doesn't change the fact that it is not in line with what they believe.

though im no fan, i imagine Romney is feeling like hes in the hot seat big time right now. hell, he might as well be a scientologist running for office, his views are considered so foreign.

[relentless1]

Ten pages into the thread, and Chris Scum must have not turned on his computer since he started all of this.

Hahaha.


...which is why i dont understand christians have a right to feel persecuted in this country.

I don't think the way a person feels is something anyone else can say they have a "right" to do. (THat's worded funny, I know)
I don't feel persecuted. I feel stereotyped.
Not all black people are uneducated ghetto, not all Muslims are terrorists, and not all Christians are conservative evangelicals who can't think for themselves. I'm NOT trying to sell anyone on Christianity, I AM trying to sell people on the fact that there are some of us that are different, and if a discussion is going to be had on the subject, that fact should be acknowledged.

[fluffy]

How did you deconvert, Fluffy? Or were you never indoctrinated at all?


my dissention was similar to yours really.

i was raised catholic in a small town in northeast tennessee, which you can imagine created its own theological challenges("do ya'll really worship Mary?"). i attended friends' churches a lot(baptist, methodist, etc), lots of church related events, even ones where i swore that i could "feel" god in me or whatever. but eventually the feeling wore off and i was back to square one.

while my mother was the religious one in the family, my father on the other hand was a scientist, first and foremost. as i got older, what basically happened was that, unlike church, science provided evidence to back up its theories. religion after all, is just mythology and to a lesser extent like jesse said, philosophy. but when i asked a question to a religious authority figure, and if i happened to befuddle them or point out their apparent contradictions, their explanation always came back "having faith".

but seeing as that i lived in the real world, i wanted proof not faith. religion in the end cant offer that. sure, they try and bend things around, trading creationism for intelligent design. but its still putting all your beliefs in having faith.

i also saw that, despite all the talk about god being good and righteous, there was a lot of evil shit going on the world, both currently and historically. so it also came back to the whole "bad things happening to good people" textbook rebellion as well for me. why would i want a part of that?

i think a big thing for me was asking a minister if someone could live their entire life being as virteous as possible but also be a non-believer, and asking if that person was still going to hell. he said yes. yeah, i was done with religion.

i see almost daily reminders of that now. i was recently watching the documentary The Education of Shelby Knox, about the girl in Lubbock Tx who tried to get sex education taught in the local schools, seeing as that the abstinence-only curriculum was yielding one of the highest rates of STDs of teenagers in the country. as she would go to parking lots to talk to teenagers about birth control, a preacher(who she was friends with) would be there also, pushing the abstience only program known as the Purity Pledge or whatever it was called(silver rings and everything!). even though the abstinence program wasnt working, whenever the girl backed him into a corner in a debate, he would always say something to the effect that "its in the bible: thats why".

i just keep thinking-thats it? cause a book tells you to? youre going to deny kids important information, something that could save their lives, based on a book? STDs kills, condoms help prevent that. but that doesnt matter, cause the bible says wait till you are married to have sex. am i the only one that sounds draconian to?

long story short i suppose(too late), i weighed reality vs fantasy. thats my take on it. in a way i hope im wrong. i hope that when we die we got to heaven for eternity, just as im sure that jihadists are hoping for their 72 virgins. i just dont buy it is all.

[SnM]

God Joins an Anger Management Group, the rest of the story.

...God: Oh, yes, lots more. Like I said, more than I can remember. That’s just what got written down.

GC: All right, we'll leave that alone for now. So why did your son want you to come here. (long pause)

GC (prodding): God?

God: OK! Maybe I- Maybe I toy with lesser beings sometimes. Like that whole business with putting the Tree of Knowledge smack in the middle of the Garden of Eden and then telling Adam and Eve they could eat of any fruit except from that tree. Of course I knew they were going to eat it! I just wanted to punish them, I like inflicting punishments, it's how I get my kicks, so what.

Or ordering Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a burnt offering to prove his loyalty to me. He was going to do it! Just before he shivs the little brat, I sent him a goat to do instead. You should have seen the look on Abraham's face when the goat showed up! A gag for the ages, that!

GC: Let's talk about this concept of "lesser beings." What do you suppose this tells the group about you? Maybe we might get the impression that you feel a little superior?

God: Well, I am The Alm-

GC (sharply), God (in unison, mimicking): "First names only, The!"

God (grumbling): Right, right, just call me "Almighty."

GC: OK, let's move on. So your son pointed out that you toy with other people?

God (mellowing, sitting down): Well, it's more than that. Truth to tell, I started feeling bad about some of the...things I had done, even to My Tribe. The truth is, I was a real bastard, especially to them. Really, it went on for ages. I was always hardening my heart toward them and turning my face from them and bringing pestilence on them and sending foreign marauders among them and having thousands of My Tribe stolen away into slavery. Terrible stuff, really. Heh. I was such a stinker. Anyhoo, you want the full story, you can read it in My Autobiography, The Old Testament.

GC: So, after all that, how did you feel, God?

God: Well, after that, and the destruction of the temple, the scattering of the Tribes, I...I dunno exactly. I just began to feel a little... (pause)

GC (gently): Tell us what you felt, God.

God: It’s like this. I’d had sort of a…covenant with My Tribe, but with some of them in slavery and just sort of spread hither and thither across the Middle East, the agreement was really just a shambles at this point. I just kind of…wanted to make amends, start a new chapter, you know? I wanted to…give something back to the world.

GC: Good, good. Let it all out...

God: So, I thought about it and came up with a plan. I raped this girl from Nazareth...

GC (gasps, then recovers composure): You raped a girl to give something back to the world?

God: Exactly! Wasn't it a cool idea? I gave the world My Son. And then I arranged for the world to torture Him and kill Him. Whaddya think? (long pause)

God (repeats): Whaddya think?

GC: OK, let me see if I have this straight: You commit murder and mayhem your entire existence, decide you want to start fresh, so you rape a girl to have a son because you want to have him murdered to make up for all the wrong you'd done?

God: No, no, his death would atone for all the wrongs everybody'd ever done or would do. Isn't it brilliant? Whaddya think?

GC: I think we're all out of time for this week. (to group) Same time next week?

God (growing impatient): No. I want to know what you think.

GC (soothingly, reassuringly): We have to be considerate of the schedules of everyone in the group, God. If we're going to get you through this, you are going to need everyone's input. You want that, don't you? Isn't that what your son wants you to want?

God (rising to his feet in anger): You shouldn't concern yourself with what He wants. You'll concern yourself with what I want if you know what's good for you!

GC: (still soothing): Why are you so angry, God? Is there something you aren't admitting to yourself?

God: There can't be anything I'm not admitting to Myself; I am all-knowing!

GC: (quietly): What about your son?

God: What about Him?

GC: The truth is, he didn't ask you to come here, did he?

God: You dare to question the Word of The Lord!?

GC: First names only, The. Look, if he's dead, if you had him killed, he couldn't have told you to come here, could he? This rage you have, it's all about the guilt you feel for having him killed, isn't it?

God (starting forward, shouting in his anger): You deny the truth of the resurrection?

GC (gently, backpedaling): Now, God, perhaps you meant it symbolically that your son told you to come here, or perhaps you believe his spirit was speaking to you...

God: Don't even bring the Holy Spirit into this! We're not on speaking terms!

GC: OK, now you've lost me...

God (contemptuously): Lost! You were never found! Never saved! You gentiles make me puke! Pfah! Pfah! (sounds of puking)

GC: I'm sorry, what does this have to do with your dead son...?

God: You deny the Miracle of Resurrection! You've taken His Name in vain! I am a Wrathful God! The Lord is a Man of War! I-

GC: First names only, The!

God: That's it! You're getting the ravenous bears I set upon the punk kids who mocked My Prophet Elisha's baldness! Sic 'em bruins! (shrieks from AA group members, gradually fading)

Jesus (appearing in a puff of smoke, looking around): Aw, geez, Pop! Not again! How am I going to explain this to Mom?

God (sulkily): My actions do not require explanations. Shall a faultfinder contend with The Almighty? He who argues with God-

Jesus (tiredly): “-let him answer it.” Yeah, yeah, I know all about your conversation with Job, Pop. How many millions of times did you tell it to me before I was knee-high to a cross? And how many times do I have to tell you before you get it through that omniscient skull that I know everything you know? Who is the One Who Is Three?

God (even more tiredly than Jesus): Oh Me, not with the damned metaphors again!

Jesus (wanders over to a coffee pot on a table in a corner, picks up a Styrofoam cup and helps himself to some of the beverage): Am I not to you as the face is to the obverse of the coin that is worn with time till no edge remains of it? And is not the Holy Spirit that seamless divide, that edgeless edge, which cleaves us in twain and yet cleaves us one to the other? Lord, let this cup pass away from me.

God: What?

Jesus: This coffee. It’s cold.

God: Enough! I justify Myself to no man! (disappears in a puff of smoke)

Jesus (sighs): I’m not just a man to justify yourself to, Pops. Oh, well. (toeing one of the bodies amidst the carnage) Let’s see what I can do with this mess. Arise. (spirits emerge from the torn and ravaged bodies)

Group Counselor’s Spirit: What happened?

Jesus: Well, my friend, it’s like this. Poppa was a rolling stone. And he rolled all over you and yours.

GCS: I don’t understand.

Jesus: I know. Nobody every did. Probably half my parables sailed by the disciples like a breeze through the lilies of the field. They were the best we had, just never the brightest. (shakes his head) Yes, never the brightest. But having not bright gold to work, mold the dull clay of the Earth.

GCS: What?

Jesus: Never mind. It’s like this: We don’t do miracles anymore, not the flashy kind that you’d need, anyway. If I tried to resurrect you, it wouldn’t work because you wouldn’t buy it - and neither would anybody else. Even if by some miracle - heh - you believed in your own resurrection, you’d be pestered and bothered and hated and feared and ultimately destroyed - because you would represent something inexplicable. The world’s too sophisticated to accept the inexplicable anymore. You’d probably end up being dissected while still alive by some myopic technocrat that calls himself a scientist.

GCS: I still don’t understand…

Of course you don’t. That’s the point. Look, I miss the miracles, truly I do, but we’re about hearts and minds and souls now, not special effects. The best I can do is have your group come sit by my side, crowned in majesty, in heaven.

GCS: But I’m an atheist!

Jesus (shrugs): Doesn’t matter. You’re all martyrs for a higher purpose, whether you knew the cause or not. It would be graceless of me not to offer heaven as a reward. Look, consider it job security. We can use you and your group. The Lord, He’s got these issues…

GCS: First names only, Jesus. (they disappear in a puff of smoke)

[fluffy]

Fluffy you're tails and Swaggert is heads..same coin..same mindset.


if this nation were 50/50 christian and atheist, sure. but its not, and you and i both know it.

[relentless1]

if this nation were 50/50 christian and atheist, sure. but its not, and you and i both know it.

Poor Noodletarians, they get no love.

[SCUMGOD13]

No. This is not God to me.

And this is not freedom:
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/cornerlounge/c.jpg

you hypocrite!!

signed the believer

Woa, I just asked a question. I did not mean to upset anyone. honestly, the cross scares me but I entirely support it's right to be there. The same way I support my First Amendment right by singing in front of The Confederate flag. However, that flag belonged to Monsters of Japan not us.
We don't hang flags, signs, symbols or crosses, don't endorse anything besides a Good time.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a301/Scumgod13/zDirty.jpg

[relentless1]

I think you's just bein' ribbed Chris.

[SCUMGOD13]

You know, I almost wish I hadn't posted that. Now all I can think of is the Fat Albert & The Cosby Kids characters playing their little back-alley instruments and singing "Crosses hurt when they up your butt, oh yeah!" :)

What?? How did the Fat Albert Gang get in there? Does he still come on anywhere?

[spinetingler]

What?? How did the Fat Albert Gang get in there? Does he still come on anywhere?


Your local public library might have it on DVD. We do.

[fluffy]

I don't feel persecuted. I feel stereotyped.
Not all black people are uneducated ghetto, not all Muslims are terrorists, and not all Christians are conservative evangelicals who can't think for themselves. I'm NOT trying to sell anyone on Christianity, I AM trying to sell people on the fact that there are some of us that are different, and if a discussion is going to be had on the subject, that fact should be acknowledged.


i thought it was acknowledged in the fact that i never said "all christians" or "every christian". didnt realize you needed a validation as being an exception to the majority, but i guessed wrong apparently. my mistake.

of course by the same token, as is always happens in this sort of discussion, people jump to the conclusion that atheist=christian h8r. i guess stereotyping is ok on the other side then, huh?

[fluffy]

Poor Noodletarians, they get no love.


at least we have the all you can eat pasta buffet at communion though.

[I.C.U.]

if this nation were 50/50 christian and atheist, sure. but its not, and you and i both know it.

I doubt the nation is 50/50 anything. I'm saying that if one reads the new testament, decides to be in agreement with it, openly claims what, as far as I can tell, one is supposed to claim, inevitably someone comes out of the woodwork to heckle and ridicule.

For example, two or three words about me believing in a living God and somebody chimes in, "cross up the butt, cross up the butt, ha ha ha" like that should insult me. That symbol doesn't mean anything to me. Neither do all the buildings w/ steeples and bells on top. The pope has no special standing nor does Mary or Paul or Buddha for that matter.

I claim a living God. I claim it openly and publicly and I hope that claiming that openly and publicly means then when the proverbial shit hits the proverbial fan the God that I claim will claim me.

[fluffy]

I think you's just bein' ribbed Chris.



mmmm....ribs. can i get an amen???

[jack frost]

One thing that bothers me is that the most interesting recollections of the teachings of Jesus were left out of the canonical New Testament: the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Mary. They present a much more complex, and philosophically unique, vision.

That said, I think Jesse is missing the point a bit when he says that the teachings of the New Testament are nothing special. For the time and place they were written, they were radical ideas. Read the first few verses of the Book of Acts, where the disciples, after Jesus' death, urge everyone to live communally, to sell all they own and pool their resources and give "to each according to his need". Sounds like socialized living to me.

[trancendyce]

He a thief if he didn't credit that line to Lenny Bruce.

He did mention Bruce... however he also mentioned an even older source for it... unfortunately I killed those brain cells long ago and cannot remember who it was.

[gypsy]

That said, I think Jesse is missing the point a bit when he says that the teachings of the New Testament are nothing special. For the time and place they were written, they were radical ideas.

they were, but the point is that historically, lots of people were offering radical ideas at that time. it was an era of a lot of political and cultural ferment and hybridization. the middle east was chock full of visionaries, prophets, and the like. and a lot of what we now call the "gnostic" (or "false," i guess if you're a believer) gospels were much more radical than what made the final cut. which is not to diminish the significance of some of christ's teachings, but stacked up against the greeks that came before him and the buddhists, sufis and so forth who came after -- not to mention the entire run of western philosophy from the renaissance on -- it was hardly unprecedented or unsurpassed in intellectual rigor or daring.

[kag]

I think Jesus' message was politically quite radical, even stacked against all the other interesting folks you just tapped, Gypsy. While Buddha, for example, called for personal transformation, Jesus wanted societal transformation.

I sometimes think evangelicals get so wrapped up in the "personal savior" element of Jesus-worship because it's easier than living his more relevant message, which is about working for more just, humane culture and institutions. If all it takes to be a Christian is to be dunked in the water and have a "personal relationship" with a dead guy, then being a Christian is awfully easy. And Jesus repeatedly told his followers that being a Christian should not, would not be easy.

[gypsy]

I think Jesus' message was politically quite radical, even stacked against all the other interesting folks you just tapped, Gypsy. While Buddha, for example, called for personal transformation, Jesus wanted societal transformation.

i think that's a somewhat wishful reading, even though i personally find it attractive. jesus does not really emerge as a political figure. yes, he's pretty harsh on the wealthy and mighty, but mostly by way of saying that wealth and power tend to alienate the individual from god. he cast himself (or is cast in the gospels, which is all we have) as a spiritual leader. his attitude toward political power seems dismissive, not revolutionary.

[ernie]

i'm not sure "god" can really get a pass from historical context. taking a historicist view of the bible (the view taken by us non-believers) sort of necessitates seeing it as a collection of laws, myths, folktales, historical accounts, etc etc. -- and more or less obviates taking its claims to supernatural divinity seriously. if you're going to in any way credit it as a source of supernatural truth, i'm not sure you can also claim historical context. (i.e. omniscient creators of the universe who stand outside time and space don't get to say "everyone was doin it.")

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "source of supernatural truth." The Bible is, in fact, "a collection of laws, myths, folktales, historical accounts, etc etc." Whether those are objective "source(s) of supernatural truth" I cannot say. I do think they are subjective sources and that, as such, they need to be read in their historical context (as well as their political, cultural and social contexts).


as for the new testament and christ's teachings and everything, they're interesting and enlightened (some of them anyway), but -- again, from a historicist viewpoint -- not all that exceptional when you consider the total run of human philosophy. that is, there is little that is valuable in the teachings of christ that you can't find elaborated on in greater depth and with greater candor elsewhere in the canon. if it weren't for the claims to divinity, i think he would seem like a significant but not necessarily first-tier thinker. (not to mention a lousy political prognosticator -- the meek shall inherit the earth o rly?)

I'm sorry, I seem to have overlooked that other religion that teaches that God was tortured, killed and buried, after which he went to hell. Which religion was that?

[relentless1]

i thought it was acknowledged in the fact that i never said "all christians" or "every christian". didnt realize you needed a validation as being an exception to the majority, but i guessed wrong apparently. my mistake.

of course by the same token, as is always happens in this sort of discussion, people jump to the conclusion that atheist=christian h8r. i guess stereotyping is ok on the other side then, huh?

STEREOTYPING:

im not saying christians are inherently evil or vindictive. its their claim that this or that is a sin, and the unquestioning of that platform outside of maybe some shrugged shoulders that basically says "well, its gods will" that annoys me.

and ok maybe, one on one, christians lower their defenses enough to say that a couple of gays together arent that big of a deal. but when push comes to shove and the group mentality kicks in(why else have 5000 people in the same building ever sunday?), im willing to bet they stick with the herd.


Seeing as how I've not said one thing this entire thread about you being an atheist, or atheism at all for that matter (because I haven't given it any thought), how can you possibly turn what I said around to make me me seem like the person doing the stereotyping?

Perhaps it's all semantics. I think that if you are talking about a certain group of people, and you don't use language like "some" or "the ones I've been exposed to" or "most", or even "the typical", you're lumping all of the members of that group into the same category. If you just say "Christians" you ARE saying "all Christians." It's implied. Perhaps you don't see it that way, but I do, so we'll agree to disagree on that.
I still need you for the Mayer plan.

[kag]

There is such a thing as a liberal Christian, a progressive Christian. But let's face it - most of the Christians you hear from and hear about, especially in this neck of the woods -- are extremely conservative, extremely pushy and extremely judgmental. So I can certainly see where non-Christians develop stereotypes and get fed up with "Christians."

Those of us who consider ourselves progressive Christians need to stand up straighter and speak out louder, while acknowledging that those ugly stereotypes don't develop out of thin air.

[ernie]

When I started reading the bible, I had no clue or wish that I'd become disillusioned with the whole thing. It just turned out that way.

You and Julia Sweeney. She tells a fascinating story about losing her faith in Episode 290 of This American Life. Search the show's website for "Godless America." I tried to do a direct link to the show but it wouldn't work.

[Hildegard]

Not sure Christ said all that much about politics, other than pretty much acknowledging the Roman Empire was in control and the Jews and Samaritans and all other non-citizens might as well get used to it and pay their taxes. I'm pretty sure that's what really got him killed.

[gypsy]

I'm sorry, I seem to have overlooked that other religion that teaches that God was tortured, killed and buried, after which he went to hell. Which religion was that?

those aren't the parts of christ's teachings i find valuable. the redemption/resurrection stuff does nothing for me, so that's not what i was talking about.

[ernie]

When I, an inquisitive and desperately anxious teenager, read that passage [about the Israelites commiting wholesale slaughter of their enemies] and the many others like it, I wasn't at all shocked that primitive cultures had behaved that way toward one another. What threw me was the fact that the same god which loved me and everyone, sheltered us from harm and gave his own son for me, would tell someone to do such an awful thing. Yeah, I'd say it's shocking. It at least knocks that god down a notch or two in the credibility category.

I can certainly understand that point of view. From my point of view, I think that the Israelites probaly misunderstood what God wanted. Given the historical context of the event, I would not find that surprising.

It really doesn't make any difference, however, because the passage was not preserved as part of the Biblical canon to encourage the slaughter of your enemies. That would be completely inconsistent with the Gospels. The point of the passage is that God wanted Israel to survive and prosper as a nation.

[ernie]

I don't feel persecuted. I feel stereotyped.

"You must pass some Reputation around before giving it to relentless1 again."

[ernie]

[Jesus's] attitude toward political power seems dismissive, not revolutionary.

Which strikes me as a revolutionary attitude towards political power.

[Fred_auf_die_Rockwells]

who's to say its not the same for your friends and family about abortion? have any of them ever donated to a pro-choice organization? voted for a pro-choice candidate? spoken up in a church meeting about how abortion should stay legal? im guessing in most cases, no. thats the way its been for me talking to religious friends and family about abortion.

You don't have to be loud or have deep pockets to have a decent opinion. I'd rather have a bunch of Christians who were silently practical and realistic instead of vocally dogmatic.


and thats a great way to wash our hands of responsibilty, isnt it? should we ignore global warming too, leaving it up to god as some christians have said we should do? we also elected in a person to run this country who has a known fondness for capital punishment and cost a lot of innocent life, directly or not. and then we gave him another 4 years to do more of the same. how, as a christian nation, could we let that happen? was he for the greater good? or did we just elect him because he was a fellow christian, he was "in the club" regardless of his past and current discretions?

There are plenty of "we are not of this world" Christians, but I think they are thankfully in the minority. I think most rational Christians recognize that while Christ might be returning soon, we should make the world a better place for our kids while they're around.

And the Presidental stuff? That's a whole different thread! Point taken, though. :)


i guess im just failing to see the greater good being enacted anymore. "leaving it up to god" just sounds kinda lazy.

I'm not condoning it, just reporting what I've experienced. And again, I'd rather most Christians take that "give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" attitude rather than trying to act out what they believe to be God's will here on Earth.

[ernie]

those [Christ's suffering, death, burial and descent into hell] aren't the parts of christ's teachings i find valuable. the redemption/resurrection stuff does nothing for me, so that's not what i was talking about.

Which kind of brings us back to the subject of this thread, does it not?

Christ's suffering and death is the point of it all for me, which is why I wear a crucifix and why I am offended by the cross on I-75. The "redemption/resurrection stuff" is a profound spiritual truth that is profaned when it is turned into a conservative political symbol like that cross.

[trancendyce]

I hope that claiming that openly and publicly means then when the proverbial shit hits the proverbial fan the God that I claim will claim me.

That is very Pascalian of you. I am fond of his approach, since it makes more sense than most.

[gypsy]

The "redemption/resurrection stuff" is a profound spiritual truth that is profaned when it is turned into a conservative political symbol like that cross.

i suppose. i've always thought the cross was a pretty weird icon. but that's between you and your co-believers.

[SnM]

I'm sorry, I seem to have overlooked that other religion that teaches that God was tortured, killed and buried, after which he went to hell. Which religion was that?

I'm rusty on it all, I fully admit, but didn't some of the mystery religions, maybe Mithraism or Zoroastrism, feature the god's death and resurrection and promise similar fates to those who followed its teachings?

[Ripshod]

[regasrding the bible verses about Israelites committing genocide]... From my point of view, I think that the Israelites probaly misunderstood what God wanted. Given the historical context of the event, I would not find that surprising.

It really doesn't make any difference, however, because the passage was not preserved as part of the Biblical canon to encourage the slaughter of your enemies. That would be completely inconsistent with the Gospels. The point of the passage is that God wanted Israel to survive and prosper as a nation.
My point is about how that affected me and my religious beliefs. I was raised to see the bible as wholly righteous and infallible. I know that one does not have to take every word of the bible as literal truth before one can consider themselves a christian, but that's what I had been told from day one. The striking aspect of those stories is not the cruelty of the Israelites, but the complicity of the being I had previously thought of as the epitome of all that is love. Whatever the point of the passage, there remains the fact that, if it is to be believed at all, god commanded his followers to commit despicable acts.

Everyone I asked about this apparent contradiction had a different explaination, and when I pushed the matter, everyone got exasperated (some got pissed off about it) and all their arguments deconstructed to 'you gotta have faith'. Well, I refused to worship a being who couldn't even live up to my standards, much less to the standards he held for me.

Then I was left with ignoring the passages that don't make sense. That is the road most taken, since it's impossible to take every word of the bible as literal fact without dismissing some parts in favor of the others. Christians who are not biblical literalists will usually admit that there are some prretty loopy parts there. When I forced myself to face the reality of that, I found that I could, by picking the verses I preferred, have a god of any character I chose. If the bible is not 100% correct, then it's up to me to choose my own personal correct parts. Of course, you see where that leads.

I find it interesting that everyone who worships a god, has found a god which believes just exactly as they do. I've never heard anyone say, "Well, I really don't think that adultery is wrong at all, but since god says it's a sin, then I guess I shouldn't do it". Those who don't think it's a sin for a woman to cut her hair or expose her legs (these are NT proscriptions) are free to discount those passages and declare that behavior as sin-free, no matter what the bible says. So what the hell's the point?


If your qualms are about God striking down the incorrigibly wicked, BC, you should probably take it up with Jews. You are off the mark addressing this to Christians.
Actually, I was taking it up with the god who commanded it. If I address my remarks to christians, it's only to explain why I'm not one of them.

You've confused Christian w/ the hype and the propagandists (is that a word?). When one does claim to be a Christian and say coo-coo things like "I believe in a living God" you're instantly off the grid in cool school. There's this collective eye-roll and you're instantly lumped in with "them, they".
To one who does not believe in a living god, yes, you do get lumped into that group. You have declared yourself to be a part of 'them'. I go to great lengths not to make presumptions about what else you must believe. For instance, I don't think that, because you believe Jesus was the son of god (that in itself is an assumption - a correct one perhaps?) that you also believe the universe is less than 10,000 years old. In fact, calling oneself a christian is just about the most watered-down thing one can say. It tells me practically nothing.

[trancendyce]

It has been suggested that the whole cross thing was co-opted (like almost everything in the christian religion) from the earlier pagans, since it was a symbol that was already well established. As I understand it, the cross was a symbol of points that come together to create four paths (4 elements and 4 directions) and the actual crossing point is a sort of mystical doorway of transformation and power.

"I went down to the crossroad, fell down on my knees."

[Ripshod]

Yeah, back to the cross thing. I agree with what somebody else said, whoever it was and I'm not about to scroll through this mess to find out. When I see one of those, what it tells me is, "We're christians here buster, just be damn sure you know that!". Since I'm not, I can't help the feeling that I'm being specifically, if not individually, told that I don't belong here.

[Wombat]

Does this metal cross, cold steel looming hundreds of feet in the air, represent religion to you?
I'm not being an asshole, I don't know what I truly believe about God but this cross is not what I picture. This reminds me of Power, Control, and most all it instills fear. It should stand in front of a Prison not a church.


http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h157/walklikeme/l_21a01ef8d813e4530c8585ea55954467.jpg



Ok, here's my take...

I've known about religion my whole life, the bible, God, satan, but have never really known other then what was told to me or what movies I've seen. One of (actually the first) New Year's resolution for me this year was to read the bible. Cover to cover. As of tonight, I've read up to Psalms 18. At this point I've a new view of who I'm suppose to be but with some doubts and worries. I see this cross and yes, the first thing I think of is God, or Jesus. But one of the 10 commandments is that we are not to worship any idol and another is none shall come before me (meaning God). So are we committing sin by hanging crosses everywhere and worshiping Jesus? The whole "I'm a jealous God" thing keeps ringing in my ears.

I've seen on a History channel program once where back around the time of the Knights Templar, that many people believed the same thing and went around destroying images of Christ and crosses.

I dunno, maybe I've not read far enough yet. Up until Psalms, the book flowed, sometimes a bit hard to follow, but it still was like reading a history book. Psalms is like a mental speedbump. Maybe it will shed more light the further I go.

...and where does it ever teach you how to pray?

[trancendyce]

...and where does it ever teach you how to pray?

I forget exactly where (NT), but there is a rather nice passage about praying privately instead of publicly.

[fluffy]

Seeing as how I've not said one thing this entire thread about you being an atheist, or atheism at all for that matter (because I haven't given it any thought), how can you possibly turn what I said around to make me me seem like the person doing the stereotyping?

did i say that YOU were the one doing the stereotyping? no, i dont think i did. i was just pointing out that while you were quick to say i was stereotyping christians, ive yet to see any admonishing of the same against those of us who arent christians.


Perhaps it's all semantics. I think that if you are talking about a certain group of people, and you don't use language like "some" or "the ones I've been exposed to" or "most", or even "the typical", you're lumping all of the members of that group into the same category.

then yes, it is semantics then, since "some" is not the same thing as "all" or "most".


If you just say "Christians" you ARE saying "all Christians." It's implied. Perhaps you don't see it that way, but I do, so we'll agree to disagree on that.

sorry, next time ill be sure to get the names of each christian that exhibits that type of behavior. that way ill avoid offending your tender sensibilities that if i say "most" that you think im saying "all".

from now on when i post about say, the ineffectiveness of congress, would you like me to list the name of every single person of which i speak therein? id hate to think that id be lumping in folks who did not fit the category of which im referring to.


I still need you for the Mayer plan.
id say finding cohorts for his disappearance wouldnt be to hard.

[I.C.U.]

Yeah, there's a specific prayer in the NT more than once.

And Pascal..yeah..I agree with the cliff note awareness I have of his Wager. I've always felt inexplicably drawn to the French in general. The mathematicians, the Impressionists and I'm pragmatic about pretty much everything.

Life has been difficult, faith in the face of it, even more so. But by claiming a belief in God and by setting margins on my will and my behavior based on this belief and by being a diligent steward of my will I have everything to gain and absolutely nothing to lose.

As for God slaughtering people, you are presuming the he slaughtered innocent people. The Canaanites were burning their children in sacrifice to their gods. They were practicing bestiality, etc...

They were cut off to prevent the rest of the world from being corrupted.

I read this somewhere and I agree with it: God's character and the acts he requires are fully consistent with everything that both testaments would lead us to expect in our God. The problem usually centers in a deficiency in our view of things and our ability to properly define terms or grasp the whole of a subject.

The Canaanites had 40 years to change their ways after the Israelites left Egypt. They heard about what happened in Egypt and they were aware of what happened to Jerrico. They knew of Sodom and Gomorrah and still they persisted in their ways.

[fluffy]

Those of us who consider ourselves progressive Christians need to stand up straighter and speak out louder, while acknowledging that those ugly stereotypes don't develop out of thin air.

there, that is all i ask. green cubes for life, kag!

[I.C.U.]

and I think the universe is way older than 10,000 years.

[fluffy]

I think most rational Christians recognize that while Christ might be returning soon

wow, that sentence gave me ice cream brain freeze. something about combining "rational" with "christ might be returning soon"....

[gypsy]

The Canaanites had 40 years to change their ways after the Israelites left Egypt. They heard about what happened in Egypt and they were aware of what happened to Jerrico. They knew of Sodom and Gomorrah and still they persisted in their ways.

you do realize that this is the same reasoning bin laden & co. use to justify their slaughter, right?

the problem with gods who ascribe to themselves the right to kill and destroy based on doctrinal trespasses is that their followers tend to grant themselves the same power in his name.

if you take the bible seriously, it is hard to conclude that the deity depicted therein is loving, consistent or even particularly well intentioned. surely there are some better gods available.

(edit: and, in fact, a lot of progressive christians do construct themselves a better god out of the better bits and pieces of the bible. but once you get into that game, it's like ripshod said -- why be wedded to the bible at all, except out of some kind of cultural entropy?)

[fluffy]

Christ's suffering and death is the point of it all for me, which is why I wear a crucifix and why I am offended by the cross on I-75. The "redemption/resurrection stuff" is a profound spiritual truth that is profaned when it is turned into a conservative political symbol like that cross.

but lets say a progressive church erected that cross. one that, say, opposes the war in iraq. would you be offended then?


i just fail to see the distinction really between one crucifix and another. is there a height limit where it goes from acceptable to profane?

[fluffy]

i suppose. i've always thought the cross was a pretty weird icon. but that's between you and your co-believers.

eh, what have we got jess? monkeys?

[fluffy]

I find it interesting that everyone who worships a god, has found a god which believes just exactly as they do. I've never heard anyone say, "Well, I really don't think that adultery is wrong at all, but since god says it's a sin, then I guess I shouldn't do it". Those who don't think it's a sin for a woman to cut her hair or expose her legs (these are NT proscriptions) are free to discount those passages and declare that behavior as sin-free, no matter what the bible says. So what the hell's the point?

To one who does not believe in a living god, yes, you do get lumped into that group. You have declared yourself to be a part of 'them'. I go to great lengths not to make presumptions about what else you must believe. For instance, I don't think that, because you believe Jesus was the son of god (that in itself is an assumption - a correct one perhaps?) that you also believe the universe is less than 10,000 years old. In fact, calling oneself a christian is just about the most watered-down thing one can say. It tells me practically nothing.

damn. you are my new hero. that was one of the best posts ive read here in months.

[Hildegard]

I don't mind the cross as a symbol at all, and I don't understand why anybody objects to it. There are two traditions (or myths) at play here.

For Christians, it's a symbol of sacrifice, on which the Christian faith is entirely based. Not just the "pascal" sacrifice, but the idea of giving up oneself (or one's own interests) for the interests and redemption of the whole. Yeah, we can get all queasy about the blood and gore, but let's not be pussies about the hard realities of human existence. They exist and might as well be recognized and reflected in spirituality. Life and history are rife with stories and legends about people dying for others and the loss of blood for the salvation of others. It's a theme pervading all cultures throughout all times. It will always be so, because it is the way it is. And it will never change as long as humans act like humans. It's the dark side of our nature that causes meditations on spirituality, and the cross is a fairly clean representation of that order.

On a larger scale, the cross is a direct successor to the ancient star symbol of myriad pagan traditions. From the standpoint of a purely humanist appreciation of history and cultural symbolism, the five points represented by the cross have roots in prehistory. There shouldn't be any dismay in any person who has read history or anthropology as to its relevance.

[gypsy]

eh, what have we got jess? monkeys?

how quickly we forget...

http://kapgar.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/cheerleaders.jpg

[trancendyce]

Say what you will about Johnny-boy, but even I cannot deny his hottness when he is fresh from the sea. ;)

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u117/trancendyce/johnbestwhenwet.jpg

[I.C.U.]

"the problem with gods who ascribe to themselves the right to kill and destroy based on doctrinal trespasses is that their followers tend to grant themselves the same power in his name."

Based on the teachings of Christ, God is the one entity that absolutely has the right to do as God pleases. What man chooses to do in imitation doesn't diminish Gods standing or raise man up to a God level. Talk about comparing apples to Allmightys..geeze.



"if you take the bible seriously, it is hard to conclude that the deity depicted therein is loving, consistent or even particularly well intentioned. surely there are some better gods available."

If you have decided that the end of your mortal life is the end of your consciousness for eternity I can see how you'd draw those conclusions.

[fluffy]

I forget exactly where (NT), but there is a rather nice passage about praying privately instead of publicly.


seems a LOT of christians overlook that passage apparently. seems its almost a competition to see who can be seen the most in church on sundays.

[gypsy]

For Christians, it's a symbol of sacrifice, on which the Christian faith is entirely based.

hold up there. i thought the new covenant was the absolution of sacrifice (christ died so we don't have to). what about christian doctrine emphasizes personal sacrifice? certainly its popular teachings don't, they're all about accepting jesus as your personal savior. actually, i can't tell what christianity really asks of its believers, apart from belief. the requirements of the creed were molded and diluted a lot in the early going to make it an easier sell to converts, and at this point it mostly seems to be about choosing a team.

follow-up question: how/why is the fetishization of sacrifice (christ's or anyone else's) a good or useful thing? blood sacrifice is the guiding principle that still allows governments to rally people to war. it's a really dangerous concept that has, historically, been put to a whole lot of very bad purposes.


It's the dark side of our nature that causes meditations on spirituality, and the cross is a fairly clean representation of that order.

aren't you sort of glossing over the massive amount of GUILT bound up in the symbol? ("he died for YOU! you ungrateful unworthy wretch!")

[gypsy]

If you have decided that the end of your mortal life is the end of your consciousness for eternity I can see how you'd draw those conclusions.

i haven't concluded anything about the end of my mortal life, due to insufficient data.

[Wombat]

seems a LOT of christians overlook that passage apparently. seems its almost a competition to see who can be seen the most in church on sundays.

I've yet to go to church. I figure as long as I face east when I try to pray then I'm all good. For a spiritual n00b anyway.

[fluffy]

But by claiming a belief in God and by setting margins on my will and my behavior based on this belief and by being a diligent steward of my will I have everything to gain and absolutely nothing to lose.

but why is religion needed for that? cant someone live a life with proper societal boundaries WITHOUT a god providing guidelines? as jess has said, any number of philosophers can give recommendations on how to live a respectful proper life, and without the fear of a ominpotent god hanging over our heads.


As for God slaughtering people, you are presuming the he slaughtered innocent people. The Canaanites were burning their children in sacrifice to their gods. They were practicing bestiality, etc...

and for practicing bestiality they deserve to die? and keep in mind, there are people that consider themselves christian who compare homosexuality on the same level as bestiality and incest. does that make it true?


They were cut off to prevent the rest of the world from being corrupted.

yeah, the klan and nazis felt the same way about the jews. and they considered themselves christians as well. or probably the way a lot of evangelicals feel about muslims today.

[fluffy]

how quickly we forget...

http://kapgar.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/cheerleaders.jpg

yeah, but its hardly definitive to atheism solely. i could see a christian trying to make a case for intelligent design there.

[Hildegard]

follow-up question: how/why is the fetishization of sacrifice (christ's or anyone else's) a good or useful thing? blood sacrifice is the guiding principle that still allows governments to rally people to war. it's a really dangerous concept that has, historically, been put to a whole lot of very bad purposes.

I'm not arguing in favor of it. But peeps seems to like it when they're deifying. I'm just explaining things, intellectual like.


aren't you sort of glossing over the massive amount of GUILT bound up in the symbol? ("he died for YOU! you ungrateful unworthy wretch!")

Fuck, I dunno, man. I've been out drinking with my sister. Give a bitch a break.

[Wombat]

Fuck, I dunno, man. I've been out drinking with my sister. Give a bitch a break.


Note to self. Coke through the nose burns.

[fluffy]

Based on the teachings of Christ, God is the one entity that absolutely has the right to do as God pleases. What man chooses to do in imitation doesn't diminish Gods standing or raise man up to a God level. Talk about comparing apples to Allmightys..geeze.


and yet many many christians have claimed that whatever deed or deeds they have done, whether good or bad, was instructed for them to do by god himself. therein lies the complication-whos to say who is lying and who isnt? what makes the pope claims of a direct link to god trustworthy versus say, reverend phelps? are the Army of God doing gods work as say World Hunger Relief? are they all wrong then?

[Hildegard]

what makes the pope claims of a direct link to god trustworthy versus say, reverend phelps?

Prada. Benedict wears Prada. Phelps...my guess is Sears.

[Wombat]

whos to say who is lying and who isnt?

Does this mean it's all one big hoax? Someone's elaborate story?

[gypsy]

Fuck, I dunno, man. I've been out drinking with my sister. Give a bitch a break.

ok, 6 hail marys and we'll call it a night.

[fluffy]

Does this mean it's all one big hoax? Someone's elaborate story?

isnt that what mythology is? do we still worship Zeus, Shamash or Albiorix?

[trancendyce]

Hey Zeus!

[Wombat]

isnt that what mythology is? do we still worship Zeus, Shamash or Albiorix?

So many many moons from now, the crucifixion will be put up on a big screen for people to watc...oh, wait a minute.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by ernie
Christ's suffering and death is the point of it all for me, which is why I wear a crucifix and why I am offended by the cross on I-75. The "redemption/resurrection stuff" is a profound spiritual truth that is profaned when it is turned into a conservative political symbol like that cross.but lets say a progressive church erected that cross. one that, say, opposes the war in iraq. would you be offended then?

That's a good question, but I really can't answer it.

One problem is trying to imagine a "progressive" church erecting a cross like that. Large crosses like the one in question are invariably erected by Jerry Falwell types. Look at this (http://crossministries.net/) for example.

Another problem is that I don't consider myself "progressive." I'm a Roman Catholic. My church is against the war in Iraq (always has been), but I have never heard anyone call us "progressive."

Maybe a Protestant who goes to a "progressive" church can answer your question. I really can't.

[ernie]

hold up there. i thought the new covenant was the absolution of sacrifice (christ died so we don't have to). what about christian doctrine emphasizes personal sacrifice?

http://www.monroegallery.com/showcase/images/MotherTheresa.jpg

[thedisobedients]

You guys walk like you got crosses up yer butts. ;)

[I.C.U.]

"but why is religion needed for that? cant someone live a life with proper societal boundaries WITHOUT a god providing guidelines? as jess has said, any number of philosophers can give recommendations on how to live a respectful proper life, and without the fear of a ominpotent god hanging over our heads."

My actions are reward based.

Everyone you've referred to who acts out atrocities on people who are unlike them are mortal beings and don't have the power to resurrect. God can and that is the difference. The birth, life and death of Christ aside it was his resurrection that proved Gods sovereignty.

Call the new testament fables, folklore, what you will. It's the closest thing we have to an eyewitness account of the death and resurrection of Christ. The disciples actually saw these events take place and then they looped round and round the Mediterranean telling and re-telling the story. When they couldn't be everywhere at once they wrote letters. The NT is those letters. I think that that could be considered as valid an eyewitness account and as anything.

Paul hated the Christians and spent years tearing them down. Then he got his bell rung one good time, like divinely rung, and the air around him said, "Paul, cool it." Call bullshit on that if you want to but Paul was a self proclaimed hater and he experienced something so profound on the road to Damascus that he changed the entire direction of his life and spent the rest of his days claiming his love for God and the Christ as the Messiah.

He said over and over that he'd have to be a moron to risk his neck as he did when he spoke openly about Christ and in contradiction of Jewish law if what he was saying wasn't true.

[relentless1]

There is such a thing as a liberal Christian, a progressive Christian. But let's face it - most of the Christians you hear from and hear about, especially in this neck of the woods -- are extremely conservative, extremely pushy and extremely judgmental. So I can certainly see where non-Christians develop stereotypes and get fed up with "Christians."

Those of us who consider ourselves progressive Christians need to stand up straighter and speak out louder, while acknowledging that those ugly stereotypes don't develop out of thin air.

I can see it too, that's why I'm TRYING to "stand up straighter and speak louder" in the hopes of changing that stereotype. I indicate quite plainly that I am a liberal Christian, and then I point out the stereotype that exists in the hopes that I can change that view. You get green cubed for suggesting it, and I get told I have "tender sensibilities" for doing it. This doesn't make sense to me.

If I'm not going about it the right way, please tell me, exactly what would you suggest? I'm open to the suggestion.

[trancendyce]

jmo,

Paul was the first christian imperialist fundie and he was perfect for that part with his Aristotle/Roma background. He was quite the fanatic, due perhaps to his mystical conversion. I find that if you really talk turkey with most serious fundies it turns out that they try to follow the teachings of Paul rather than the teachings of their Christ.

[No Data]

So there ya go. The perfect excuse for utter genocide. Those damn Amalekites must've had their children and infants out there throwing stones at Israelites.

So there's a context in which "Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants" can be construed as the words of a loving, just god? Why don't you explain that one to me?


I see this a lot in people who have hang ups about the "Christian God". Something about him being unjust, unkind, and overall uninviting in their mind.

Things like "Why would God do this?" "why did God let my niece drown?" "why did god let 9/11 happen?" But people never see things from the other point of view. They just look at this vengeful, hateful God from the old testament. Okay, God is vengeful. But God also gave you life, a heart that loves, and a brain that thinks. You can see the humanity and humility in God, by looking at Jesus' life. There are very few Christians in this time that really act as Jesus did. He genuinely loved everyone. No matter what their reputation, their profession, their way of life. Jesus didn't really care what you had done, he loved you just the way you are. So, sum it up to "God is multi-faceted, with a bad temper." And the best way I've come to understand this, is that until you are a deity, it's pretty hard to imagine why "God" would do anything. The fact that people want to bring "God" to this "peer" level and be like "okay god, why'd you do this, I thought that was really shady" just baffles me. I mean sure, question God. But I don't think it is within our "realm" of understanding, to comprehend the full spectrum of the nature of a deity. Or if you understand, you might not always agree because you can't really relate at all. People who want to bring God to their level often try to superimpose their own way of life, and thinking, into how God SHOULD be. Almost like, if they were God, that's how they would do it. Well, obviously it hasn't worked out like that, but to each their own though.


The Bible is very diluted, from what I believe it was originally. The times have changed a great deal. God is not waging war like in the old testament times. We live in a "grace" age now. Christianity isn't tiny, the "go and witness to all nations" has been accomplished. We aren't suffering persecution anymore. I believe our agenda, as Christians, has had to progress and change. Some people have picked up on that. Others-- not so much.

[gypsy]

http://www.monroegallery.com/showcase/images/MotherTheresa.jpg

there is no emoticon to express the vehemence of my eye-rolling.

i didn't ask for specific examples of self-sacrifice among self-identified christians. surely you know we can find examples of self-sacrifice among believers and non-believers of all stripes. i asked what in christian doctrine calls for sacrifice. i can't tell that core christian doctrine (the redemption/resurrection stuff) asks for a whole lot besides belief.

which is a big key to its success. if you look at the abrahamic faiths, christianity is the least restrictive in terms of everything from diet to clothing to sexuality, and can be found with the most wide-ranging variants. it was/is extremely adaptable, bending to and absorbing existing pagan practices willy-nilly, and it didn't require that people change how they dressed, what they ate, how they wore their hair, what music they danced to, etc etc. (of course some sects tried to clamp down on those things, but for the most part it was all about the expansionism.)

which explains the creed's long-running hit-show status, but also leaves it a little at a loss when it comes to making claims for its demands on believers. it doesn't actually demand very much. and even when it does, as with birth control and catholicism for example, an awful lot of "believers" seem to have no big problem picking and choosing which tenets to uphold.

which is FINE. i don't care. i think people should use birth control, it's a good idea. but don't come telling me about the rigor of your faith. i'm sure you can make it rigorous if you want to, just like you can will yourself to get up and run 10 miles every morning. but rigor is hardly required OR common in the general run of christianity.

[No Data]

there is no emoticon to express the vehemence of my eye-rolling.

i didn't ask for specific examples of self-sacrifice among self-identified christians. surely you know we can find examples of self-sacrifice among believers and non-believers of all stripes. i asked what in christian doctrine calls for sacrifice. i can't tell that core christian doctrine (the redemption/resurrection stuff) asks for a whole lot besides belief.


Most of the bible preaches about giving up your life, and self, and devoting it to Christ.

That doesn't mean you have to be a saint, or the pope, but it does imply a sort of sacrifice.

[gypsy]

Most of the bible preaches about giving up your life, and self, and devoting it to Christ.

what? where?

most of the bible certainly does NOT preach about that. even allowing that you mean most of the new testament, it doesn't. it doesn't call for you to GIVE UP ANYTHING. it just calls for you to believe.

what has your average christian "given up" for his or her faith? a few hours a week in church, if that? i mean, c'mon. (and of course church serves significant social needs, which is the main thing most regular churchgoers get out of it, a communal experience. which is valuable! i like communal experiences. and if you need to pretend your communal experience is about god, that's ok with me.)

and again, i don't care. i'm not saying everyone has to give up their worldly possessions and walk around in sackcloth. i'm not saying everyone has to do anything, it's not my religion. but if most christians are making any kind of serious "sacrifices" for their faith, i gotta say i don't see it.

[gypsy]

(and i'll add that anyone who thinks you can get all you need to know about christianity from the bible doesn't know much about either christianity or the bible. but it doesn't surprise me that most churches don't do much education about the political and cultural history of the faith, since a lot of it isn't too pretty and all of it is very much human in its strategies and concerns.)

[gypsy]

(and i'm sorry, usually i'm pretty good about live and let live and all that. but there are times that debating ANCIENT MIDDLE EASTERN MYTHOLOGY in the 21st century gets to me.)

[No Data]

Woah, triple post.

Gypsy, I don't disagree that Christians are required to make physical, literal sacrifices to "enter heaven"-- if that was what you were implying. But the whole saying about "taking up your cross and following Christ" implies a sort of self-sacrifice. It implies that you change. No, you are not required to do it. You are required to have faith, and faith alone. It is an easy religion. What religion requires strenuous activity??

If you want to get technical, there was a great deal of "sacrifice" involved in the old testament. All of it, in a very literal sense. The laws they were required to follow, etc. It was a great deal more than 2 hours at a church once a week.

I agree that Christians are not required to do anything for their faith. But the sacrifice (from what I've gathered, and taken from it) is supposed to be coming from within, and only reflected outwardly. Maybe that's just "lazy" or something to you. Maybe Christians are supposed to be running 5 miles a day for Jesus or something. I'm not entirely sure. I didn't know religion was a job.

[gypsy]

Maybe Christians are supposed to be running 5 miles a day for Jesus or something. I'm not entirely sure. I didn't know religion was a job.

i don't think it's a job, any more than any other moral system. it's just that as a non-christian in an overwhelmingly christian culture, i react negatively to claims by christians about the moral rigors of their faith, which from my observation are no more or less demanding than the rigors of any other moral code -- of living a conscious life in the world, basically -- and do not in fact derive from the specific textual whatnots of the bible but from some deep and serious truths of the human condition (we live, we die, we try not to kill each other too much, etc).

i get tired of the condescension non-believers get, even if it's often an unconscious condescension, to the effect that "well you can't understand it because you don't believe." hey, try NOT believing. try not KNOWING what life is for, what death is about, and still making the best way you can through the maze, with no reward promised, no punishment looming, just uncertainty. try living with that and being ok with it and then tell me it's the easy path.

i don't think any of it is easy, and that's why i mostly think whatever totems or rituals or inspirational examples people invoke to ward off the dark and look for the light is ok. i have mine too, i just don't mistake them for absolute truths.

[No Data]

i don't think it's a job, any more than any other moral system. it's just that as a non-christian in an overwhelmingly christian culture, i react negatively to claims by christians about the moral rigors of their faith, which from my observation are no more or less demanding than the rigors of any other moral code -- of living a conscious life in the world, basically -- and do not in fact derive from the specific textual whatnots of the bible but from some deep and serious truths of the human condition (we live, we die, we try not to kill each other too much, etc).

i get tired of the condescension non-believers get, even if it's often an unconscious condescension, to the effect that "well you can't understand it because you don't believe." hey, try NOT believing. try not KNOWING what life is for, what death is about, and still making the best way you can through the maze, with no reward promised, no punishment looming, just uncertainty. try living with that and being ok with it and then tell me it's the easy path.

i don't think any of it is easy, and that's why i mostly think whatever totems or rituals or inspirational examples people invoke to ward off the dark and look for the light is ok. i have mine too, i just don't mistake them for absolute truths.

I don't look down on you for not being a Christian. Some of my very dearest, closest, and best friends are not. I don't think that means that they never understood my beliefs. They just didn't agree. It wasn't what they wanted for their life. It makes sense to me. I don't walk around them going "oh, how sad for you, you're going to hell." I don't talk about my religion with them unless they ask. I respect their choice to NOT believe in anything, and they respect mine. And while it would please me to see them "convert", naturally, I don't expect it and I don't base my feelings towards them on that. I am NOT judgmental. I don't care if you're atheist, gay, etc. As long as you are a decent person, and you do the right thing, I'm game. And in my heart, I believe that that is really all Jesus was about. So that's what I do.

I have a certain amount of respect, and curiosity in people who can lead the life of an "atheist". To me, that seems a lot more difficult. Life, for me, would have been much harsher had I not had a belief system to fall back on at times. To live a life, knowing that after you die, there is nothing. To have your only real "hope" be in some kind of human evolution that will likely never happen in your lifetime. That seems... tough. But people do it, and they are happy. They are better for it, in their own way. I respect that. I don't believe that they need to be "witnessed" to profusely. At this point in time, Christians don't HAVE to do anything because you can't drive down a road without seeing a church, or turn on a tv without seeing someone preach about the bible. Yeah, it's really hard to prove that you're a christian, based on works. The work has already been done for us. But that doesn't make it fruitless. That doesn't make it some glorified moral compass.

[No Data]

Double post.

[gypsy]

i don't know that anything happens or doesn't happen when i die. it's the not-knowing that i'm ok with.

i think not-knowing is the condition of our lives, whether we profess to a faith or not.

[Fred_auf_die_Rockwells]

wow, that sentence gave me ice cream brain freeze. something about combining "rational" with "christ might be returning soon"....

Sigh...Listen, this is not a belief I share. I'm not asking you to believe it, either. The *point* was, while all Christians have faith that Christ will return, the vast majority of them don't take that as a go-ahead to trash the planet. True, *some* Christians have that mentality: Jesus is coming; look busy; get all the oil we can; I hate tree huggers. But hell, a lot of NON-Christians have similar beliefs when it comes to the environment. I just meant that while Christians might have a fundamental belief you and I don't have, that doesn't mean they can't be rational about the things you mentoned: environmentalism and politics (as well as abortion and gay marriage, as discussed earlier).

[SCUMGOD13]

but why is religion needed for that? cant someone live a life with proper societal boundaries WITHOUT a god providing guidelines? as jess has said, any number of philosophers can give recommendations on how to live a respectful proper life, and without the fear of a ominpotent god hanging over our heads.



and for practicing bestiality they deserve to die? and keep in mind, there are people that consider themselves christian who compare homosexuality on the same level as bestiality and incest. does that make it true?



yeah, the klan and nazis felt the same way about the jews. and they considered themselves christians as well. or probably the way a lot of evangelicals feel about muslims today.



Thank You, You beat me to that! talk about Hypocrisy! It's exactly the way the Radical Muslims (60% of the ones in our own Country) Think Jews and Christians must DIE. They believe they are doing right.* They believe we're a bunch of evil fat fucks that should be slain in the worst way. Pull out and lose this war and we'll find out. Hope they don't take our guns first.
The KLAN really believe they are right. Most people do believe what they're doing is right in their God's eye. No matter how absurd it be

[trancendyce]

I keep thinking of this...

http://www.web-books.com/classics/Poetry/Anthology/Stevens_W/Sunday.htm

[I.C.U.]

jmo,

Paul was the first christian imperialist fundie and he was perfect for that part with his Aristotle/Roma background. He was quite the fanatic, due perhaps to his mystical conversion. I find that if you really talk turkey with most serious fundies it turns out that they try to follow the teachings of Paul rather than the teachings of their Christ.

Paul was Christian. He perpetuated the teachings of Christ. As you stated, he was perfect for the part. Almost as if he was...chosen.

If what you are implying discredits his listeners and Paul as a Christian teacher then there isn't a college curriculum in the country that is valid unless it is taught by Einstein, Newton, etc...

Why is it so easy to believe magic but so hard to believe in God?

[trancendyce]

Why is it so easy to believe magic but so hard to believe in God?

Not quite sure what you are getting at with this one. Personally, I don't see much difference between the two.

[relentless1]

Why is it so easy to believe magic but so hard to believe in God?

Magic doesn't dictate how people are supposed to be living their lives, it's non-threatening.

[I.C.U.]

Not quite sure what you are getting at with this one. Personally, I don't see much difference between the two.

I don't know what I'm getting at either. It is interesting that those who deny the existence of God immediately set about trying to find something else to fill the gap.

[I.C.U.]

Gypsy, round and round you go about the "they" but this thread has several Christians participating that don't seem to fit the bill as you describe a Christian to be. Your opinions have been listened to, debated, yes but you have been listened to and it doesn't seem that anyone here has judged you or has condescended to you.

What do you want? Applause for your non-belief? Who persecutes you? If you have expectations of believers shouldn't you as a non-believer live up to your own standards?

The NT is full of examples of sacrifice and people DO sacrifice every day in an attempt to be obedient. You don't see it..so what! It's not for you to see. Maybe you don't look for it. Maybe you don't see anything because you don't want to see anything.

[spinetingler]

Paul was Christian. He perpetuated the teachings of Christ.

With an incredible amount of his own input based on his past experiences.

[artemis]

Magic doesn't dictate how people are supposed to be living their lives, it's non-threatening.
i think that, more than anything else, is it for me. i don't like being told what to do. i don't think i'm a particularly bad person. in fact, i think maybe i'm kind of a good person. at least, i try to be. why can't that be enough?
i don't think i could ever say with any certainty that god exists or doesn't exist. i guess i don't understand how faith works. i don't think pretending to believe just so i can get into heaven will cut it so if god wants to damn me to hell i don't think there's anything i can do about it.

[spinetingler]

i asked what in christian doctrine calls for sacrifice.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Luke 14:12-14. "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Mt. 19:20ff. The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."


1 John 3:17. But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Acts 2:44. All those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began to sell their property and possessions, and share them with all, as anyone might have need. (Damn ChristoCommunists).

[spinetingler]

Paul was Christian. He perpetuated the teachings of Christ.

To an extent. He also added to the teachings of Christ (and IMHO that's where he fails).

[Hildegard]

Paul was a dick.

Here is a smart statement (http://www.truthdig.com/report/page3/20070523_chris_hedges_i_dont_believe_in_atheists/) on the issue of faith as a response to the incipient "atheist fundamentalism" of Sam Harris.

[I.C.U.]

The concept of Heaven and Hell seems more based on Dantes Inferno that on the bible.

I have faith that God exists. I have faith that I'll get to participate in existence beyond the mortal coil. I don't see heaven/hell panning out like it's alluded to here. I think societal structure will continue in a new way. I believe that the community structure will be similar to what it is now. It's the mindset that will be forever changed with the extinction of mortality and mortal concerns..the extinction of death.

Also, I believe that we'll all be resurrected..not just the believers.

My works during my mortality don't, IMO, get me to heaven. I am attempting to show myself to God as a steward worthy of responsibility when this age falls and the next one begins.

'Made in the image of' to me means that everything about the planet was set in motion in accordance with the rest of the universe that went before it. As it has been it will always be.

I don't want to be caught off guard. I want to see what's going on in the world. I want to be aware of the seen and the unseen. My mortal reasoning can't do that for me but my faith can! I ask and I DO receive. I knock and my mind is opened in different ways. You assume its easy, HA!

[relentless1]

Paul was a dick.

Here is a smart statement (http://www.truthdig.com/report/page3/20070523_chris_hedges_i_dont_believe_in_atheists/) on the issue of faith as a response to the incipient "atheist fundamentalism" of Sam Harris.

"...narcissistic obsession with our individual unconscious"

Best phrase ever.

[spinetingler]

Magic doesn't dictate how people are supposed to be living their lives, it's non-threatening.

really:
http://www.mrbillsadventureland.com/reviews/c-d/discworldR/rincewind2.jpg

[trancendyce]

Paul was a dick.

Here is a smart statement (http://www.truthdig.com/report/page3/20070523_chris_hedges_i_dont_believe_in_atheists/) on the issue of faith as a response to the incipient "atheist fundamentalism" of Sam Harris.

Oh yes! very!

[spinetingler]

Paul was a dick.


"Was", or "liked"? 'Cause that much misogyny came from somewhere.

[I.C.U.]

"The point of religion, authentic religion, is that it is not, in the end, about us. It is about the other, about the stranger lying beaten and robbed on the side of the road, about the poor, the outcasts, the marginalized, the sick, the destitute, about those who are being abused and beaten in cells in Guantanamo and a host of other secret locations, about what we do to gays and lesbians in this country, what we do to the 47 million Americans without health insurance, the illegal immigrants who live among us without rights or protection, their suffering as invisible as the suffering of the mentally ill we have relegated to heating grates or prison cells. It is about them.

We have forgotten who we were meant to be, who we were created to be, because we have forgotten that we find God not in ourselves, finally, but in our care for our neighbor, in the stranger, including those outside the nation and the faith. The religious life is not designed to make you happy, or safe or content; it is not designed to make you whole or complete, to free you from anxieties and fear; it is designed to save you from yourself, to make possible human community, to lead you to understand that the greatest force in life is not power or reason but love."

YES!! RAWK!!

[trancendyce]

"Was", or "liked"? 'Cause that much misogyny came from somewhere.

Sure seems like both, doesn't it?

[ScottW]

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Luke 14:12-14. "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Mt. 19:20ff. The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."


1 John 3:17. But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

Acts 2:44. All those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; and they began to sell their property and possessions, and share them with all, as anyone might have need. (Damn ChristoCommunists).


This:
Rm 10:9
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

The things above were meant as guides to help the believer live a blessed life and have peace in their heart. Also, they were to help the non-believer remove from their life the things which would prevent them from doing God's will and focusing on God. There is not a list of "to-dos" in order to get into Heaven. For those of us who have little or nothing, the "giving up your worldly possesions" line would not carry much weight.

For the record: There is a great deal of sckepticism about Paul within the scholarly community. Much of it comes from the research done on the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Disciples pretty much sent Paul away to the farthest reaches and not only did they not trust his intent, but they disagreed with much of what he taught. Just FYI. See Dead Sea Scrolls Deception for reference.

[spinetingler]

Sure seems like both, doesn't it?

Quite.

[jack frost]

It really saddens me that so many Christians - I'd say at least 98% of them - don't really do what Christ told them to do, as illustrated nicely by the verses Spiney quoted up there.

It's the verses like those that allow people like me, who don't literally worship Jesus or JHVH-1 to still appreciate the underlying philosophy of much of the New Testament.

(Whatever did happen to the "Commies For Christ" movement anyway?)

[fluffy]

"The point of religion, authentic religion, is that it is not, in the end, about us. It is about the other, about the stranger lying beaten and robbed on the side of the road, about the poor, the outcasts, the marginalized, the sick, the destitute, about those who are being abused and beaten in cells in Guantanamo and a host of other secret locations, about what we do to gays and lesbians in this country, what we do to the 47 million Americans without health insurance, the illegal immigrants who live among us without rights or protection, their suffering as invisible as the suffering of the mentally ill we have relegated to heating grates or prison cells. It is about them.

and yet, despite being a nation dominated by christians, including in the hghest levels of power, influence and money, we havent solved any of those problems.

what we have instead is multi-million dollar churches(with 10 of thousands of members, so dont try and claim that they are small percentage of christianity), christian leaders living in mansions and driving bentleys, and a self-described evangelical going to war in muslim nations that is doing little more than kicking the hornet's nest of radical jihadist fundamentalism. and with this country's approval to the highest appointment in the country, no less!

are you sure its the crucifix christians in america use as their symbol, and not the dollar sign? cause there are a lot of christians in this country that seem to be more concerned with the latter than the former.

of course, nobody here is like that. every christian here is an exception that that point, obviously.

[spinetingler]

This:
Rm 10:9
"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

The things above were meant as guides to help the believer live a blessed life and have peace in their heart. Also, they were to help the non-believer remove from their life the things which would prevent them from doing God's will and focusing on God. There is not a list of "to-dos" in order to get into Heaven. For those of us who have little or nothing, the "giving up your worldly possesions" line would not carry much weight..

As you noted - Paul, not Jesus. Jesus told the young ruler to sell all and give to the poor in response to the "what must I do to get to Heaven" question.
Now, the question is, was that meant as a guide just for that particular man, or did Jesus mean that that method should be followed by everyone else?

Gyps was asking for doctrinal guidelines for "what in christian doctrine calls for sacrifice", so I gave him a few. There was no intent for it to be an all-encompassing statement of faith.


For the record: There is a great deal of sckepticism about Paul within the scholarly community.
That's a polite way of saying it. :)

[fluffy]

It really saddens me that so many Christians - I'd say at least 98% of them - don't really do what Christ told them to do, as illustrated nicely by the verses Spiney quoted up there.


fluffy waits in hiding, ready for relentless to decry jack of stereotyping...

[jack frost]

.

And that Jesus... he was one rough dude. He was one nappy-headed sumbitch.

[gypsy]

Gyps was asking for doctrinal guidelines for "what in christian doctrine calls for sacrifice", so I gave him a few. There was no intent for it to be an all-encompassing statement of faith.

right but as scottw pointed out, those things are not really part of the core doctrine. they are not essential to the practice of the faith, and as far as i know have historically never been preached or practiced as such (with the obvious exception of the apostles themselves). the barrier of entry to salvation in core christian doctrine is very, very low -- you just say you believe and you're in. which, again, was key to its propagation.

my objection is mainly to the idea that there's something very difficult about christianity. as it is commonly preached and practiced, there isn't. it makes very few demands on its believers. which i think is fine, i'm skeptical of organized religion to start with and religions that force people to jump through a zillion hoops even moreso. i just think it's worth acknowledging the reality of how christianity functions in the world.

[I.C.U.]

and yet, despite being a nation dominated by christians, including in the hghest levels of power, influence and money, we havent solved any of those problems.

what we have instead is multi-million dollar churches(with 10 of thousands of members, so dont try and claim that they are small percentage of christianity), christian leaders living in mansions and driving bentleys, and a self-described evangelical going to war in muslim nations that is doing little more than kicking the hornet's nest of radical jihadist fundamentalism. and with this country's approval to the highest appointment in the country, no less!

are you sure its the crucifix christians in america use as their symbol, and not the dollar sign? cause there are a lot of christians in this country that seem to be more concerned with the latter than the former.

of course, nobody here is like that. every christian here is an exception that that point, obviously.

Are you angry with Christians or capitalists? You pretty much just pointed the finger at America which includes, among everything else, Christians.

And on what do you base a statement like you made above? Many people you describe probably do claim to be Christians. That doesn't mean that they are Christ like in their actions. Politicians may claim to be Christian because it'll get them elected. They may not be..really. They may be lying.

The bible pretty much called out, as did many other sources, how this and every other "Rome" would fall.

There have been Samaritan efforts world wide. To say that there are none is short sighted.

For God there is no death. What you see as destruction he can see as change..a do-over..a time out. It's his prerogative as a creator to tweak.

[relentless1]

fluffy waits in hiding, ready for relentless to decry jack of stereotyping...

No, actually, he said it exactly the way I think it ought to have been said. By saying 98%, he reflected that he is aware there are 3% of us that are not the norm. He's one up on you in that respect.



of course, nobody here is like that. every christian here is an exception that that point, obviously.

See, that is exactly why we can't get beyond the stereotype. When we try, you have to make a smart ass comment about it. You repeatedly show that you have no desire to see beyond the stereotype.

You still haven't responded to my query fluffy:

Why is that I can spend an entire thread trying to speak out against stereotypical conservative Christian views and trying to show that I, and many others are different, with you doing nothing but arguing with me and calling me overly sensitive, but when KAG pops on and makes the suggestion that progressive christians should do exactly what I've been doing, you give her green cubes "for life"?

[I.C.U.]

right but as scottw pointed out, those things are not really part of the core doctrine. they are not essential to the practice of the faith, and as far as i know have historically never been preached or practiced as such (with the obvious exception of the apostles themselves). the barrier of entry to salvation in core christian doctrine is very, very low -- you just say you believe and you're in. which, again, was key to its propagation.

my objection is mainly to the idea that there's something very difficult about christianity. as it is commonly preached and practiced, there isn't. it makes very few demands on its believers. which i think is fine, i'm skeptical of organized religion to start with and religions that force people to jump through a zillion hoops even moreso. i just think it's worth acknowledging the reality of how christianity functions in the world.

""If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

That'll get you resurrected but your works will decide in what standing.

I wholly agree with your rejection of the tepid masses, Gypsy. I fall short. I've been lazy, spiritually. But now I'm aware of that and I do try every day to recognize my mortality and my reasoning ability as errant and that is when I say, "God's will be done." I don't say that to dismiss myself of responsibility. I say that meaning that I pray that my will will be drained from me and replaced with the foresight of God's will. I pray that that spirit will find and fill space in me and navigate for me until I too see as God sees.

Giving up control of my search for material and physical gratification, accepting gladly when things don't go as I'd prefer they go, it is hard. It's very, very, very, very hard. I like to get my way.

[F-Stop]

God,

If you exist, could you drop us a line and clarify a few things? (Ok, maybe a few thousand things).

/end letter to God.

[I.C.U.]

"you just say you believe and you're in. which, again, was key to its propagation. "

also, in the context of WHEN this was taught saying it could get your head severed from your neck so "just saying it" was probably about the hardest thing of all because you had to be willing to die for saying it..and..if the scriptures are as accurate about the future as they were about the past..christians will face that challenge again.

[fluffy]

Are you angry with Christians or capitalists? You pretty much just pointed the finger at America which includes, among everything else, Christians.

how is this hard to understand? we are a nation that is around 85% christian(ABC poll). we are also a nation that only gives 3% of our income to charities(05 survey).

now, i dont really care how much money people give away..except when according to the majority's belief states that you should "Sell your possessions and give to charity". for a faith that likes to pat itself on the back for its giving, 3% doesnt sound like they are following their bosses' orders too well.

my point being that if american christians were really as caring and generous as they like to think they are, the 220K or so people that consider themsevles christian in the united states sure arent supporting the poor and homeless like they could be.

how can christianity be about "the poor, the outcasts, the marginalized, the sick, the destitute, etc", when christians only feel compelled to donate 3% to help others?

i know what you are going to say. "fluffy, how much do you give to charities?". only problem is i dont subscribe to a theologican doctrine that mandates a lot of personal and financial self sacrifice. you and other on the other hand do.

im waiting for the part where you tell me im just stereotyping christians again. i know its coming...

[Raincrow]

God,

If you exist, could you drop us a line and clarify a few things? (Ok, maybe a few thousand things)./end letter to God.

"Oh, Lord, if there is a Lord, save my soul, if I have a soul."
...Ernest Rehan

[relentless1]

Yeah, the whole you just say you're in and you're in thing, I don't know where that came from. I don't personally know any Christians (progressive or no) that believe that.

[relentless1]

im waiting for the part where you tell me im just stereotyping christians again. i know its coming...

Dang, you're just eaten up with that, aren't you?

[fluffy]

No, actually, he said it exactly the way I think it ought to have been said. By saying 98%, he reflected that he is aware there are 3% of us that are not the norm. He's one up on you in that respect.

how is 98% different than saying "most"?


See, that is exactly why we can't get beyond the stereotype. When we try, you have to make a smart ass comment about it. You repeatedly show that you have no desire to see beyond the stereotype.

as someone who was once a practicing christian, i think ive earned the right to make the occasional smartass comment about my former faith. whats funny is that you are reinforcing the stereotype of the "offended christian" who thinks that because someone is an atheist that they have no desire to keep an open mind about people's faiths. you forget that i was once ONE OF YOU.

as ive said many times, stereotypes exist for a reason.


Why is that I can spend an entire thread trying to speak out against stereotypical conservative Christian views and trying to show that I, and many others are different, with you doing nothing but arguing with me and calling me overly sensitive, but when KAG pops on and makes the suggestion that progressive christians should do exactly what I've been doing, you give her green cubes "for life"?

because she seems a lot more at peace and confident about her beliefs than others here do, who feel the need to give a laundry list about how much god rawks.

its why i have more respect for people who attend a small local church and keep religion between themselves and their god than those that feel the need to be surrounded by 10,000 others like them in a stadium and wave their arms around and scream from the rooftops, complete with arena lights and massive sound system. or the ones buying christian-oriented knicknacks for their cars, homes and kids. or the ones ending every sentence with "praise be" or "amen". just who are they trying to convince, god or their neighbors?

kag popped on, made her point, and popped back off. it was clear concise and to the point. she didnt feel the need to keep posting about how awesome god is over and over.

almost everyone else has spent the entire thread defending their faith from what i guess they assume as being a vicious atheist attack on their beliefs. why do you care what i think anyway? i made a claim the way i see most christians behaving, you come on saying im stereotyping. then, you come back with a bizarre retort that "most" or "many" are the same as "all". i never said all christians. you did. ill just be sure to stick to saying "98%" from now on, seeing as that got your seal of approval.

so again, yay for all the enlightened christians here as you all seem to be. its that darned 98% out there that are making you look bad.

[I.C.U.]

"how is this hard to understand? we are a nation that is around 85% christian(ABC poll). we are also a nation that only gives 3% of our income to charities(05 survey)."

-We are a nation where 85% of the population that responded to that particular poll checked the box that says they are Christian.



"now, i dont really care how much money people give away..except when according to the majority's belief states that you should "Sell your possessions and give to charity". for a faith that likes to pat itself on the back for its giving, 3% doesnt sound like they are following their bosses' orders too well.

my point being that if american christians were really as caring and generous as they like to think they are, the 220K or so people that consider themsevles christian in the united states sure arent supporting the poor and homeless like they could be.

how can christianity be about "the poor, the outcasts, the marginalized, the sick, the destitute, etc", when christians only feel compelled to donate 3% to help others?

i know what you are going to say. "fluffy, how much do you give to charities?". only problem is i dont subscribe to a theologican doctrine that mandates a lot of personal and financial self sacrifice. you and other on the other hand do."

-I wasn't going to ask you that. I was going to say, "Yeah, I do. I personally tithe 10% of my income to St. Judes. I also try to get my Samaritan on with random acts of charity both of my money and my time, sometimes just with my empathy" but I don't talk about it..well, I did here but you asked.



im waiting for the part where you tell me im just stereotyping christians again. i know its coming...

-That's between you and Relentless. If i thought you were stereotyping anything it would be socialization.

[spinetingler]

right but as scottw pointed out, those things are not really part of the core doctrine.

Sure they are - Jesus said so.

What's happened since then is someone else's fault!



(I should probably say something in this space about One True Scotsman)

[I.C.U.]

For the record..I've simply enjoyed conversing about our differences through the thread. I find it stimulating. About the only thing I ever successfully converted is the tub faucet I converted into a shower head.

[ScottW]

As you noted - Paul, not Jesus. Jesus told the young ruler to sell all and give to the poor in response to the "what must I do to get to Heaven" question.
Now, the question is, was that meant as a guide just for that particular man, or did Jesus mean that that method should be followed by everyone else?


I think this is where you have some personal discernment - there is the camel/eye of the needle thing as well as plenty of passages that talk about money being inhibitive of getting into Heaven - I take this one to mean, money can be a problem with living a peaceful life and may keep you from seeing all of God's glory, it may mean for this particular person that money was keeping him from living a Godly life. I know of people who let money rule over them. Lucky for me, I don't have that problem. Of course I don't have much money either.
It is much more complicated, but that is my oversimplyfied blab response.

[gypsy]

Yeah, the whole you just say you're in and you're in thing, I don't know where that came from. I don't personally know any Christians (progressive or no) that believe that.

what else is there? what other requirements are there in day to day life to call yourself a christian? kosher jews and muslims have dietary restrictions, and the more orthodox of them have some pretty strict regulations about dress. muslims have to pray 5 times a day facing one particular direction, no matter where they are. and they can't drink alcohol either. christians don't have to do anything. they don't even have to go to church (i know plenty who don't).

which is great. i think basing your diet or dress on some rules written by middle eastern priests hundreds or thousands of years ago is kinda silly. but let's face facts, christianity is an easy faith to call yourself part of. it does not really disrupt your daily life, it just allows you to call yourself saved.

that is not to say there aren't some christians who strive to be "christ-like" and all that, but there aren't really very many. most of you on this thread have not given up your worldly possessions and gone wandering among the poor or whatever. which -- again -- is fine. i'm not judging you, you're just doing the best you can in your daily life like the rest of us. but christians tend to surround themselves with this aura of righteousness-by-affiliation (christ's life was hard, or the lives and deaths of the early christian martyrs were hard) when in fact their faith requires very little of them, other than saying they believe it.

[relentless1]

how is 98% different than saying "most"?



as someone who was once a practicing christian, i think ive earned the right to make the occasional smartass comment about my former faith. whats funny is that you are reinforcing the stereotype of the "offended christian" who thinks that because someone is an atheist that they have no desire to keep an open mind about people's faiths. you forget that i was once ONE OF YOU.

as ive said many times, stereotypes exist for a reason.



because she seems a lot more at peace and confident about her beliefs than others here do, who feel the need to give a laundry list about how much god rawks.

its why i have more respect for people who attend a small local church and keep religion between themselves and their god than those that feel the need to be surrounded by 10,000 others like them in a stadium and wave their arms around and scream from the rooftops, complete with arena lights and massive sound system. or the ones buying christian-oriented knicknacks for their cars, homes and kids. or the ones ending every sentence with "praise be" or "amen". just who are they trying to convince, god or their neighbors?

kag popped on, made her point, and popped back off. it was clear concise and to the point. she didnt feel the need to keep posting about how awesome god is over and over.

almost everyone else has spent the entire thread defending their faith from what i guess they assume as being a vicious atheist attack on their beliefs. why do you care what i think anyway? i made a claim the way i see most christians behaving, you come on saying im stereotyping. then, you come back with a bizarre retort that "most" or "many" are the same as "all". i never said all christians. you did. ill just be sure to stick to saying "98%" from now on, seeing as that got your seal of approval.

so again, yay for all the enlightened christians here as you all seem to be. its that darned 98% out there that are making you look bad.

I'll say it again, since you keep either ignoring what I'm saying or responding without even really reading what I've posted. I've not said, or even implied, anything about you being an atheist. I don't know enough about atheism to even begin to comment on it. You keep bringing it up, so you're obviously paranoid about it.

And you're not making smartass comments about the faith, you're making smartass comments directed at individuals. Big difference.

I didn't know there was a stereotype of the "offended Christian", so thank you for bringing it to my attention.

I've not posted one thing in this thread defending my faith, I've not given one reason why God "RAWKS". Are you confusing my posts with someone else's? Seriously.

All of the above things that you seem to be so upset about, I've done none of, yet you feel the need to continuously argue with me. I've done nothing but try to point out that there are those of us that are different and that, until people (like you) are willing to let go of the stereotypes and acknowledge this fact, the avenue for change just won't be wide enough to allow it.

Gotta tell ya, this one really takes the cake.
Your reason for hailing KAG and arguing with me? This:

"kag popped on, made her point, and popped back off. it was clear concise and to the point. she didnt feel the need to keep posting about how awesome god is over and over."

Show me ONCE where I have posted about how awesome God is. Show me ONCE where I even attempted to make a case for my faith. Are we on the same planet?
I originally said that I am a Christian who is against making abortion illegal and supports gay marriage, and that since there are those of us that exist, blanket statements should not be made about Christians in general.
Short of standing on a corner downtown screaming "I'M A CHRISTIAN, ABORTIONS AND GAY MARRIAGE FOR EVERYONE, WHEEEEE!!!!", this is how I stand up and try to institute change, by engaging in open discussion and showing others that progressive christians exist, given the opportunity.

[jack frost]

Is there a term for people who think that Christ was onto something but don't worship him as a divine being?

My three heroes, in order:

Crowley
Jesus
Buddha

I should start my own church. I am a Reverend, after all.

[relentless1]

what else is there? what other requirements are there in day to day life to call yourself a christian? kosher jews and muslims have dietary restrictions, and the more orthodox of them have some pretty strict regulations about dress. muslims have to pray 5 times a day facing one particular direction, no matter where they are. and they can't drink alcohol either. christians don't have to do anything. they don't even have to go to church (i know plenty who don't).

which is great. i think basing your diet or dress on some rules written by middle eastern priests hundreds or thousands of years ago is kinda silly. but let's face facts, christianity is an easy faith to call yourself part of. it does not really disrupt your daily life, it just allows you to call yourself saved.

that is not to say there aren't some christians who strive to be "christ-like" and all that, but there aren't really very many. most of you on this thread have not given up your worldly possessions and gone wandering among the poor or whatever. which -- again -- is fine. i'm not judging you, you're just doing the best you can in your daily life like the rest of us. but christians tend to surround themselves with this aura of righteousness-by-affiliation (christ's life was hard, or the lives and deaths of the early christian martyrs were hard) when in fact their faith requires very little of them, other than saying they believe it.

Seems logical to me.
I can only point out one thing: Calling yourself a Christian isn't what gets you there. I believe that God knows what is upon your heart, so you can't just say it out loud and make it so. If you really mean it, God knows it.

**DISCLAIMER**: I'M JUST SAYING THIS IS WHAT I BELIEVE, NOT TRYING TO CONVINCE ANYONE ELSE OF IT.
**END DISCLAIMER**

[spinetingler]

Is there a term for people who think that Christ was onto something but don't worship him as a divine being?

Unitarians.

[relentless1]

Is there a term for people who think that Christ was onto something but don't worship him as a divine being?

My three heroes, in order:

Crowley
Jesus
Buddha

I should start my own church. I am a Reverend, after all.

Can't you buy a kit for that on the internet?

[spinetingler]

Can't you buy a kit for that on the internet?


I did back in 99 or so.

[gypsy]

i know progressive christians exist, and i appreciate them the same way i appreciate progressive forces in reactionary authoritarian institutions everywhere. that doesn't change the fact that a preponderance of christian denominations remain reactionary authoritarian institutions. for every martin luther king jr. or gay episcopal bishop you find five or ten ministers or cardinals upholding reactionary social values.

since i'm not a believer and don't have a dog in the doctrinal fight, the only things that really count to me are the social, cultural and political effects of it all. to that end, i say, yay for progressive christians.

[relentless1]

[QUOTE=fluffy;130968]how is 98% different than saying "most"?
/QUOTE]

By the way, I don't recall you using the word "most" before I made reference to it. If you did, and I overlooked it, then I apologize.

[ernie]

there is no emoticon to express the vehemence of my eye-rolling .

Take it easy. Frankly, I was frustrated with your post, which got an awful lot just plain wrong. (The Creed is a compromise that everyone could agree with?!?!?!? The Creed is one of the major reasons for the Great Schism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism), the split between the Orthodox and Catholic churches in the 11th Century!!) So I used a picture as a short-cut response to your first allegation and just ignored the rest. Sorry. It was late and I had to go to bed.

I am sure that a lot of folks following this thread think I have posted too much, anyway.

Now, to your point:


i didn't ask for specific examples of self-sacrifice among self-identified christians. surely you know we can find examples of self-sacrifice among believers and non-believers of all stripes. i asked what in christian [i]doctrine calls for sacrifice. i can't tell that core christian doctrine (the redemption/resurrection stuff) asks for a whole lot besides belief.

The first thing I think of is Jesus's summary of the law: love God and love one another. The second part of the summary is usually phrased as the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It seems to me that requires a lot of self-sacrifice if it is faithfully applied. If I was starving to death I would want someone to feed me. Well, almost 16,000 children die from hunger-related causes every day (http://www.bread.org/learn/hunger-basics/hunger-facts-international.html). If I faithfully followed the rule and did all I could to feed those children it would require a lot of self-sacrifice.

It could be argued that Jesus's summary of the law is not really "Christian" doctrine, since it is also credited to the great Rabbi Hillel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder"), who lived at the same time as Jesus. But Jesus went further and told the disciples that they must love each other "as I have loved you." In light of his suffering and death on the cross, it seems to me that Jesus was calling for a lot of self-sacrifice.


which is a big key to its success. if you look at the abrahamic faiths, christianity is the least restrictive in terms of everything from diet to clothing to sexuality, and can be found with the most wide-ranging variants. it was/is extremely adaptable, bending to and absorbing existing pagan practices willy-nilly, and it didn't require that people change how they dressed, what they ate, how they wore their hair, what music they danced to, etc etc. (of course some sects tried to clamp down on those things, but for the most part it was all about the expansionism.)

There is probably some truth to that, but I tend to agree with most religious historians, who think that Christianity's willingness to accept slaves, compared to the relative exclusivity of other religions, was the major impetus to its explosive growth.


which explains the creed's long-running hit-show status...

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that. For example, the creed very intentionally begins with a description of God as the creator of heaven and earth, thereby rejecting the Gnostic claim that all material things are evil and only spiritual things (things of heaven) are good. This belief continues to this very day among many self-proclaimed Christians who denounce, for example, sexuality and whisky as inherently evil. That is not the faith and the creed is very explicit about that.


...but also leaves it a little at a loss when it comes to making claims for its demands on believers. it doesn't actually demand very much. and even when it does, as with birth control and catholicism for example, an awful lot of "believers" seem to have no big problem picking and choosing which tenets to uphold.

Surely you have heard of St. Francis of Assisi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assisi). His stated intention was to live according to the Gospels. As a result, he gave everything away and embraced lepers. That is what the faith actually demands of its followers.

Most "believers" don't do that, do they? As you say, they "have no big problem picking and choosing which tenets to uphold." In other words, we're hypocrites. Well, ok then. Call us hypocrites. But don't claim that:


...rigor is hardly required OR common in the general run of christianity.

I'll agree that it is not common, but it certainly is required.

You have been attacking the faith, but the problem is not with the faith. It is with the supposed faithful.

[spinetingler]

a dog in the doctrinal fight

I do, and the day is coming where I will probably have to leave my current church. More accurately, my church will leave me, as it appears that my dioscese will be withdrawing from the Episcopal Church. The progressives of us left behind will get to keep the building and grounds (and debt), if recent rulings in Virgina (that's the sixth court, I think) are applied here in SC.

[relentless1]

i know progressive christians exist, and i appreciate them the same way i appreciate progressive forces in reactionary authoritarian institutions everywhere. that doesn't change the fact that a preponderance of christian denominations remain reactionary authoritarian institutions. for every martin luther king jr. or gay episcopal bishop you find five or ten ministers or cardinals upholding reactionary social values.


I know, and it makes it hard. Like I've said before, I've made it habit for a long time of staying out of religious discussion, and this is because there just haven't been enough people who look at things the same way as I do, which leaves less room for discussion and more room for getting ganged up on. Having recognized that there might possibly be others on this board that consider themselves to be progressive Christians, I threw caution to the wind and have tried to have a discussion that doesn't entail trying to convince anyone of anything. Apparently, as a progressive Christian, I'm supposed to find some way to institute change without actually saying anything.

[gypsy]

You have been attacking the faith, but the problem is not with the faith. It is with the supposed faithful.

ernie, you're a learned man and i accept your corrections re: the historical record. but this conclusion -- which has been given by others on this thread in various forms -- is a great big gigantic dodge. if some very large percentage of the people who have called themselves christians over the last 2,000 years have not lived according to the demands you cite -- and we know they haven't, since the ones who have are rare enough to qualify for canonization -- then how can you argue that those things actually constitute christianity in the world? it's like arguing that the problem isn't communism, it was how it was practiced by the russians and chinese and khmer rouge. or that the problem isn't conservatism, it's the way it's been distorted by the bush administration. in these arguments, the belief system is allowed to exist in some kind of state of holy purity, and all failings blamed on the besmirchments of its practitioners.

i'm not interested in the holy pure theory of christianity -- it doesn't speak to me as philosophy or spiritual guide -- and so all i have to judge it by is its very long, very checkered history and the way it is very visibly practiced all around me. and whatever you say, i think it is eminently fair to judge christianity by the actions of its professed adherents. i don't really know any other way to judge it.

[relentless1]

Unitarians.

Bingo.
The TVUUC church here is very nice.

[ernie]

and yet, despite being a nation dominated by christians, including in the hghest levels of power, influence and money, we havent solved any of those problems [the stranger lying beaten and robbed on the side of the road...the poor, the outcasts, the marginalized, the sick, the destitute...those who are being abused and beaten in cells in Guantanamo...

The problem is with your premise. We are NOT "a nation dominated by christians." We are dominated by a bunch of hypocrites, George W, chief among them, who claim to be christians. If Jesus came back to day he would be in Guantanamo, not the White House.

[ernie]

right but as scottw pointed out, those things are not really part of the core doctrine. they are not essential to the practice of the faith, and as far as i know have historically never been preached or practiced as such (with the obvious exception of the apostles themselves). the barrier of entry to salvation in core christian doctrine is very, very low -- you just say you believe and you're in. which, again, was key to its propagation.

my objection is mainly to the idea that there's something very difficult about christianity. as it is commonly preached and practiced, there isn't. it makes very few demands on its believers. which i think is fine, i'm skeptical of organized religion to start with and religions that force people to jump through a zillion hoops even moreso. i just think it's worth acknowledging the reality of how christianity functions in the world.

Oh, I get it. You do not define Christianity as that which was taught and practiced by Christ. You define it "as it is commonly preached and practiced." That is a clever rhetorical trick, I must say. I guess you also exclude anything Marx may have said when you define Marxism.

[jack frost]

Actually my Reverend status was free. Got it in '95 or so. I can't do marriages in TN and maybe one or two other states, but I can in the rest of them.

I wonder if the Unitarian church is accepting applications. Anyone who has ever hung out with me knows I can preach up a storm. :)

[No Data]

what else is there? what other requirements are there in day to day life to call yourself a christian? kosher jews and muslims have dietary restrictions, and the more orthodox of them have some pretty strict regulations about dress. muslims have to pray 5 times a day facing one particular direction, no matter where they are. and they can't drink alcohol either. christians don't have to do anything. they don't even have to go to church (i know plenty who don't).

which is great. i think basing your diet or dress on some rules written by middle eastern priests hundreds or thousands of years ago is kinda silly. but let's face facts, christianity is an easy faith to call yourself part of. it does not really disrupt your daily life, it just allows you to call yourself saved.

that is not to say there aren't some christians who strive to be "christ-like" and all that, but there aren't really very many. most of you on this thread have not given up your worldly possessions and gone wandering among the poor or whatever. which -- again -- is fine. i'm not judging you, you're just doing the best you can in your daily life like the rest of us. but christians tend to surround themselves with this aura of righteousness-by-affiliation (christ's life was hard, or the lives and deaths of the early christian martyrs were hard) when in fact their faith requires very little of them, other than saying they believe it.


I don't really understand your hang up about Christianity being easy, or why that is such a big deal. It's designed to be easy so that even a young person can understand it. It's progressed into something less demanding of people. I understand how it might be hard to see "Christ" in most christians, because you don't see the fruits of their faith. The best way I can say that this has impacted me [personally] is just in the fact that my attitude towards people is better. I mean, I'm not perfect. I really don't believe I'm better than anyone. I try to view people as equal and all capable of bringing something "new" to the table. I try to be patient, and kind, and accepting of people regardless of what they do in their life. I've given money to homeless people, I've given money to people on the side of the road. I've given clothes to poor families. I've given food to poor families. I'm not the most tolerant person of the human race, but I'd be a lot worse if I didn't have my religious beliefs to keep me in check. I honestly don't feel this "calling" to go to china and risk my life to smuggle bibles in. I keep getting this feeling though, that you don't want to believe that someone is a "Good christian", unless they are doing all of this. I don't understand that. Can someone not be good just because they are decent? Does religion really have to be a barrier that defines and divides people so much? I honestly am not offended by people who don't believe what I believe. I AM, however, offended by people who like to say that all Christians are the same and then assume that I am like the rest just because it's what I choose to believe. That is the main reason that I never talk about my beliefs, and just keep it to myself. I do not go around preaching to people, I don't try to make it clear that "I'm going to heaven and you're not" in anyway. I live my life in harmony with the people around me, regardless of race, religion, etc. If that's all every christian, or person, in this world did, wouldn't that be enough?

[gypsy]

(The Creed is a compromise that everyone could agree with?!?!?!? The Creed is one of the major reasons for the Great Schism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism), the split between the Orthodox and Catholic churches in the 11th Century!!)

yes and no. like most religious schisms it was really more over who got to say what the creed was than the details of what was in it. a fight for power. which is most of the history of the catholic church, up to today.

[No Data]

Actually my Reverend status was free. Got it in '95 or so. I can't do marriages in TN and maybe one or two other states, but I can in the rest of them.

I wonder if the Unitarian church is accepting applications. Anyone who has ever hung out with me knows I can preach up a storm. :)

hahhaa, you can marry me one day Jack. You know, like... marry me to someone else. :)

[fluffy]

I've not said, or even implied, anything about you being an atheist. I don't know enough about atheism to even begin to comment on it.

you definitely jumped the shark on non-beleivers a few times though;

"Non-Christians look to it(old testament) because it makes for better jokes and they can use it for their own purposes." sort of a stab at atheists isnt it?


I didn't know there was a stereotype of the "offended Christian", so thank you for bringing it to my attention.

well, so far youve said "I have to wonder if you realize how disrespectful your choice of words was" over something ripshod said to you, and of course you seem to be getting your feathers ruffled over what ive said. and ive already commented about the irony of the "persecuted christian" previously, so apparently they do exist.


I've not posted one thing in this thread defending my faith, I've not given one reason why God "RAWKS". Are you confusing my posts with someone else's? Seriously.

maybe not championing your faith, but youve definitely felt the need to quantify yourself constantly with the "not all christians are like that!!!" posts.


I've done nothing but try to point out that there are those of us that are different and that, until people (like you) are willing to let go of the stereotypes and acknowledge this fact, the avenue for change just won't be wide enough to allow it.

what exactly do you see as a sterotype of christianity in america exactly? are you saying none of the standard conventions of christian faith are accurate?


I originally said that I am a Christian who is against making abortion illegal and supports gay marriage, and that since there are those of us that exist, blanket statements should not be made about Christians in general.
Short of standing on a corner downtown screaming "I'M A CHRISTIAN, ABORTIONS AND GAY MARRIAGE FOR EVERYONE, WHEEEEE!!!!", this is how I stand up and try to institute change, by engaging in open discussion and showing others that progressive christians exist, given the opportunity.

so then why make the constant case about percentages and semantics then? kag didnt feel the need to. why do you? youve spent pages saying "98% is ok, but 'most' is equivalent to stereotyping!". why? kag seems to be confortable enough in her relationship to god to not split hairs.

[ernie]

yes and no. like most religious schisms it was really more over who got to say what the creed was than the details of what was in it. a fight for power. which is most of the history of the catholic church, up to today.

It was over the authority of the pope and whether the holy spirit is subordinate or equal to God the Father.

[fluffy]

The problem is with your premise. We are NOT "a nation dominated by christians." We are dominated by a bunch of hypocrites, George W, chief among them, who claim to be christians. If Jesus came back to day he would be in Guantanamo, not the White House.


whoa, we just opened up a whole new can of worms. first, are you saying the majority of americans ARENT christians? and two, who are you to judge who is or isnt christians? i didnt know hypocrisy alone was the deciding factor of the faithful versus the hellbound.

[gypsy]

Oh, I get it. You do not define Christianity as that which was taught and practiced by Christ. You define it "as it is commonly preached and practiced." That is a clever rhetorical trick, I must say. I guess you also exclude anything Marx may have said when you define Marxism.

i think the rhetorical trick is in distancing "christianity" from the way it has been preached and practiced for the last 2000 years. christianity as an institution is a LOT more than "that which was taught and practiced by Christ," as any adherent of the one true church has to acknowledge. (weren't you talking about abortion and the death penalty earlier? and those are WHERE in the gospels?)

but going back to the doctrinal question, on the central issue of salvation -- the linchpin to the whole faith -- what reading of christ is there that suggests any of the works or sacrifices you talk about are prerequisites for eternal life? if you really think those things are prerequisites, does that mean that pretty much every christian denomination is just basically lying to its congregants about what they have to do to be granted salvation? if those things are actually requirements of the faith, then hadn't you all best get to shedding your possessions and healing the poor before you end up down in the hot dark pits with the rest of us?