The mideast & the whole nest of snakes

[dilettantedude]

Maybe next time God will fucking get it right - NO . OPPOSABLE . THUMBS!

[F-Stop]

I think he messed up by leaving His own status up to debate.*

Oh what the hell am I saying, we're his entertainment.















*(this coming from an agnostic.)

[lynnpoint]

Maybe next time God will fucking get it right - NO . OPPOSABLE . THUMBS!
Now wait just a minute Double D. What in the heck does one of Knoxville's most loved former bands have to do with a millenial old conflict?

[dilettantedude]

Now wait just a minute Double D. What in the heck does one of Knoxville's most loved former bands have to do with a millenial old conflict?

Leapin' lizards! You're not serious?

[gypsy]

it all goes back to that show in haifa. way i heard it was zilla got his arabic mixed up with his hebrew and dedicated a song to "all of you donkey-dung whoremongers, and your diseased wives." (to be fair, the boys had been hitting the fermented honey kinda hard.)

[lynnpoint]

Leapin' lizards! You're not serious?
Of course I am. As serious as this picture of the leader of the band who is unjustly being dragged into a conflict that, according to Gypsy, they only started inadvertantly. I feel the facts need to be presented in light of such a charge.
http://www.disgraceland.com/Thumbs/xilla_from_above.jpg
http://www.disgraceland.com/Thumbs/

[rikki]

Where is that lad anyway?

[lynnpoint]

He's around. Just busy.

[lynnpoint]

hey rikki. i pm'ed you. and i don't really feel anything.

[fluffy]

ok, so back to the topic at hand;

iran released this statement;

"If the Zionist regime commits another stupid move and attacks Syria, this will be considered like attacking the whole Islamic world and this regime will receive a very fierce response."

and a political analyst on CNN just made the point that iran is trying to position itself as the capitol of radical islam. he also said that if israel keeps this up iran will call any and all radicals to fight israel, which given the number of countries in the region that hate israel, would mean a LOT of fighters.

so, is this it people? bush has given israel the green light, but if they get in over their heads you know bush will support them. i could easily see this turn into a third world war.

and im really pissed at israel more than anyone else. ok, some soldiers got kidnapped. was airstrikes really the way to go? and after 24 years, they started attacking lebanon again, which is an ally to syria, which is an ally to iran, which even the state department has said is NOTHING like iraq in terms of military capabilities.

i said this recently in another post, but if israel wants to wipe itself off the map, i say let them go it alone. i think its stupid we keep getting pulled into their mess and getting associated with them. even if this doesnt escelate into fullout war, the political repercussions for us is pretty enormous. im willing to bet attacks on US soldiers in iraq will go up, and any sort of diplomacy we were having with other middle eastern countries will be greatly strained or even broken. we are barely in stable negotiations with iran as it is. im sure this wont help the situation.

and all because israel lost a few soldiers. and id say they wouldnt even be acting this way if they knew that the US wouldnt come swooping in to assist them.

he who and i were having a discussion about this in another thread, and he brought up the point that there were no moderate voices in palestine calling for peace with israel. well where is the voice of moderation in israel right now? does this response make any sort of common sense? how many civilians have died because of these airstrikes in lebanon and palestine so far? and over what? a few israeli soldiers?

[Tess]

There is no sane leadership with clout that can come in and say, "enough." Everybody, including/especially the Decider wants to kick butt instead of trying to work out peaceful solutions.

So, yes, I hate to sound pessamistic, but I think WWIII could very well be "on" and worsecase scenario will cause alliances between China and Russia with the Islamics. In any case, if it stays confined to the Arab countries, and Israel, and, of course, us, at the very least we are screwed as far as gas goes.

Hang on to your hats, and get your bicycle tires inflated.

[pixeljockey]

the Decider wants to kick butt instead of trying to work out peaceful solutions.

'we' sell israel lots of profitable war supplies, too. lockheed is probably sitting by the phone waiting for more F-16 orders.

[gypsy]

There is no sane leadership with clout that can come in and say, "enough." Everybody, including/especially the Decider wants to kick butt instead of trying to work out peaceful solutions.

yeah, i was thinking yesterday that the warhawks must be quietly enjoying this. all that nation-building and diplomacy shit is hard, and people just bitch bitch bitch about it. actual by-god bomb-dropping and stuff, tho, that they know how to do.

and as this unsurprising assessment (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/world/middleeast/14assess.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) notes, the real winners in this are the extremists on all sides.

what i don't really understand is wtf israel is thinking. supposedly olmert feels like he has to build up his military credibility, etc., but come on. isn't there anybody in his cabinet who thinks full-scale regional war might not actually be in the country's interest?

[dilettantedude]

and a political analyst on CNN just made the point that iran is trying to position itself as the capitol of radical islam. he also said that if israel keeps this up iran will call any and all radicals to fight israel, which given the number of countries in the region that hate israel, would mean a LOT of fighters.

so, is this it people? bush has given israel the green light, but if they get in over their heads you know bush will support them. i could easily see this turn into a third world war.


This is starting to look like August, 1914. I don't think Egypt or Syria will come to the aid of Hezbolla, though. Turkey will tacitly, but not openly, support Israel. The Hez are Iran's proxy in the region, true, but that's all they are, and Israel seems determined this time to destroy them completely in terms of any effective military capability. They'll probably take out Syria's air force too, since leaving them intact would expose Israel's flank.

This will throw Israel into recession, cut oil flow out of the region as well as other forms of shipping, and create chaos in the business world regionally. Damascus & Hezbollah are also the primary conduits for the huge meth labs in the area, and for the export of heroin from Afghanistan & elsewhere. Lebanon's banks finance & handle all the transactions, and the amounts in dollar terms are staggering. We are likely to see a noticeable impact economically beyond just the Middle Eastern region if Israel takes out Lebanon's banking structure, which finances the drug trade that finances Hezbollah. Israel is acutely aware of this financing chain, and seems determined to act to stop it.

The basic problem here, though, is the same as we have in Iraq. Somebody did something really stupid some time ago, an act that cannot be recalled, and put us or them in a position from which there's no good way out, only bad and worse.

Israel should never have been set up there, all the emotion and reasoning of the time aside. We should never have been in Iraq. But we're there and they're there, and the grief in such situations seems to go on for generations.

Carl Sagan was correct when he said apocalyptic predictions require higher standards of proof. I think we can draw a diplomatic analogy. Making political decisions from which there is no going back require higher standards of evidence and more compelling reasons. The more there is at risk, the more compelling the case and the evidence must be.

Bush totally ignored those standards in going into Iraq. So did Britain in after WW I, and again going with us into Iraq for the second time. DeGaul totally ignored them in going into Algeria and IndoChina. Johnson totally ignored them in going into Vietnam.

Otoh, both Clinton & Bush I took account of them, and refrained from doing something really cosmically stupid from which there was no going back. So did Kennedy in Vietnam.

The character of our leaders is critically important. Iraq is the kind of thing that happens when we elect (the SECOND time!!!) someone like Bush who isn't either intelligent or well-educated, and in addition is a coward with penis envy trying to redeem his personal image through Iraq.

I'm beginning to suspect that policy flows from character. Just a suspicion, mind you, but it won't go away....

[Tess]

The character of our leaders is critically important. Iraq is the kind of thing that happens when we elect (the SECOND time!!!) someone like Bush who isn't either intelligent or well-educated, and in addition is a coward with penis envy trying to redeem his personal image through Iraq.


Good analysis, DD, and I hate to quibble, but some of us don't quite believe that Bush was "elected" either the first or second time.

[shoetick]

Iraq is the kind of thing that happens when we elect (the SECOND time!!!) someone like Bush who isn't either intelligent or well-educated, and in addition is a coward with penis envy trying to redeem his personal image through Iraq.

whatever happened to stuffing your pants with a sock or two?

http://www.shyzer.com/albums/badtaste/alex.sized.jpg

[dilettantedude]

There's also the fanatical Christian Right in the US (by some knowledgeable estimates 30% of all those who voted for Bush the second time) who view total war in the Middle East as the Armageddon of the Bible, and that is the necessary prelude to the Rapture. They're actually cheering this chaos on, and some of them are highly influential in the Bush cabinet and in the Republican Party leadership.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'm hard put to tell the difference between Iran and the US in major respects.

[dilettantedude]

whatever happened to stuffing your pants with a sock or two?

http://www.shyzer.com/albums/badtaste/alex.sized.jpg

How in hell did you get a picture of Bush in his college days???

[dilettantedude]

Good analysis, DD, and I hate to quibble, but some of us don't quite believe that Bush was "elected" either the first or second time.

Okay, I actually thought about that as I was writing it. Put me in the "us" camp too.

[James]

Yeah, the hawks-at-heart must be loving this. Trouble is, they're the only ones who win. For those who love peace, it seems strange but there's real push toward war, (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071301670.html) whether or not those involved are conscously aware of their true intent. It's pretty clear these guys just can't let go of WWII era warefare.

Israeli and American doctrine is premised on the idea that military force will deter adversaries. But as more force has been used in recent years, the deterrent value has inevitably gone down. That's the inner spring of this crisis: The Iranians (and their clients in Hezbollah and Hamas) watch the American military mired in Iraq and see weakness. They are emboldened rather than intimidated. The same is true for the Israelis in Gaza. Rather than reinforcing the image of strength, the use of force (short of outright, pulverizing invasion and occupation) has encouraged contempt.

[pixeljockey]

whatever happened to stuffing your pants with a sock or two?

does _anyone_ actually do that?

[shoetick]

does _anyone_ actually do that?

it's better than starting a war that could end the world when all you really need is a penis pump. Until the pump kicks in use a sock.

Laura will go from uhm, to WOW in just a few short weeks or your money back.

[shady lane]

(aw, give the guy a break. for the first time in a long time, we have a first lady people would be willing to bang. that's just added stress.)

[pixeljockey]

(aw, give the guy a break. for the first time in a long time, we have a first lady people would be willing to bang. that's just added stress.)

you do understand men, shady. your sister fronda never did. fronda. fronda lane.

[SnM]

He's developing the same penchant for loopy language:

ST. PETERSBURG, Russia -
President Bush rejected Lebanon's calls for a cease-fire in escalating Mideast violence on Friday, saying only that Israel should try to limit civilian casualties as it steps up attacks on its neighbor.

"The president is not going to make military decisions for Israel," White House spokesman Tony Snow said.

Lebanon's prime minister asked Bush, during a phone call Friday, to pressure Israel for a cease-fire. But Bush told Prime Minister Fuad Saniora that Israelis have a right to protect themselves.

"We think it's important that, in doing that, they try to limit as much as possible the so-called collateral damage, not only on civilians but also on human lives," Snow said...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_eu/g8_bush

[~Rumormonger~]

"We think it's important that, in doing that, they try to limit as much as possible the so-called collateral damage, not only on civilians but also on human lives," Snow said...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_eu/g8_bush

What are they going to say when Isreal starts making it's all out ground war push through the Bekaa Valley and possibly into Beruit?

Isreal's calling up their reserves so, they're definitely planning for a ground war.

[rikki]

Let's not forget that Iran may still have agents inside the executive branch despite the purging of Chalabi and the INC. For starters, the person who was feeding information to Chalabi has never been identified.

The difference between invading Iraq and Afghanistan and entering this conflict, where all sides have fighter planes and tanks and missiles and crap, will be startling enough. If Iran gets inside information about our plans as well, we could be looking American casualties at least an order of magnitude greater than the sacrifice we're used to right now.

I'm sure the 50 million Americans who voted for four more years of lying incompetence will start lining up at mall recruitment offices any day now.

[Tess]

And, let's not forget the very real nuclear threat from Iran and, who else? Pakistan? N. Korea? Us? Do the Israelis have their own nukes? Oh, if not, I guess they have ours, don't they?

[rikki]

Israel has their own nukes, as does Pakistan. I don't think Iran has nukes, however, just nuke power.

[James]

The line in the sand is being drawn. Iran says they'd better lay off (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738315.html)Syria. Naturally, Isreal is hopping themselves (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_iran_syria_1;_ylt=AjOomkQuFvRhHTAuRt2KfLab OrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA2ZGZwam4yBHNlYwNmYw--) up to blame Syria so they can escalate the whole thing as much as possible. In my opinion, Ahmadinejad, Rummy, Cheney, Hezbollah, Bush, and all the rest are the same. They want the cut and steel of war. Otherwise they would see the most obvious of facts. Heavy-handed attacks do not stop "terrorists".

[~Rumormonger~]

Hmmmm...Can you say Cambodian incursion?

[shoetick]

anyone watch the daily show last night and see the "slice of pig" segment?

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/most_recent/index.jhtml

[dilettantedude]

The line in the sand is being drawn. Iran says they'd better lay off (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/738315.html)Syria. Naturally, Isreal is hopping themselves (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_iran_syria_1;_ylt=AjOomkQuFvRhHTAuRt2KfLab OrgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA2ZGZwam4yBHNlYwNmYw--) up to blame Syria so they can escalate the whole thing as much as possible. In my opinion, Ahmadinejad, Rummy, Cheney, Hezbollah, Bush, and all the rest are the same. They want the cut and steel of war. Otherwise they would see the most obvious of facts. Heavy-handed attacks do not stop "terrorists".


"Returning violence with violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars; darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that; hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that."

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[~Rumormonger~]

"Returning violence with violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars; darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that; hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that."

Martin Luther King, Jr.

The beatings will continue until morale improves ;~)

[Tess]

So, what should we be doing with our individual bad selves to prepare for the fallout of this possible WWIII or at least very unpleasant time? I don't have much in savings, but should I pull it out, put it under the mattress? Stock up on stuff? Duct tape, plastic wrap, courage, etc? Turn into more of a crazy lady than I already am? :) Start collecting toads, frogs, seeds, cats? (Serious question.)

DD? James, anybody?

[gypsy]

you're in knoxville. you'll be fine. one of the things that appeals to me about knoxville is that it seems like a good place to be in an apocalypse.

[~Rumormonger~]

My hope is, that Bush and his war is unpopular enough, even in a Republican Congress, to cause Congress to pull back the purse strings and shut down our ability to get involved beyond diplomacy. If that's the case then most of the economic reprecussions will be felt by Isreal.

There's a lot of sword rattling going on but I'm guessing this won't get much farther than Lebenon, Syria and Isreal.

You might consider buying a good commuter bike (http://nordicgroup.us/commutebike/) as gas prices are gonna hurt for a while and when they come down they're probably not going to come down to today's prices.

That's my hope for the best
__________________________

As paranoid as it sounds, though, my biggest fear is that Bushco is, as we speak, trying to figure out how to use this to stay in power beyond their present term.

If that's the case, buy lots of guns 'n' amo, and firewood and non-perishable food and bottled water, things could get real ugly, real fast and stay that way for a good long time.

[dilettantedude]

you're in knoxville. you'll be fine. one of the things that appeals to me about knoxville is that it seems like a good place to be in an apocalypse.

Examundo! Excellent point, thanks. One of the good things about living here.

And start putting some money into physical gold like US gold eagles or Canadian maple leafs. Buy over the Internet, or you will pay absurd Knoxville sales taxes on it. Or for larger amounts, GoldMoney.com. DO NOT put it in a safe deposit box.

It's easy insurance, and you can take it out at night after 10 or 15 beers and fondle it and it doesn't object.

[gypsy]

It's easy insurance, and you can take it out at night after 10 or 15 beers and fondle it and it doesn't object.

http://animaart.com/images/inventory/cel_full/cel12247.jpg

[ernie]

anyone watch the daily show last night and see the "slice of pig" segment?

http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/most_recent/index.jhtml

Followed your link. Watched it. Did not laugh. Made me feel ill. The man is either an incompetent idiot or so far gone on this Armageddon crap that he is purposely trying to start a regional war in the Middle East. Either way, he is putting my children's future, if not their lives, at grave risk. He is so dangerous and I feel so powerless to stop him that making fun of him is no longer funny to me. I am too scared.

Bush should be impeached for gross incompetence and malfeasance. He should then be arrested and tried for his crimes against humanity. I'll laugh about him later, if we survive.

[Carl Snow]

you're in knoxville. you'll be fine. one of the things that appeals to me about knoxville is that it seems like a good place to be in an apocalypse.

whaaa? are you serious?
i've always held (since cold-war) that K-ville would be a (if we're talking BIG ww3) 1st strike target, given its proximity to Oak Ridge and its treasure-trove of nasties.

[shoetick]

Followed your link. Watched it. Did not laugh. Made me feel ill. The man is either an incompetent idiot or so far gone on this Armageddon crap that he is purposely trying to start a regional war in the Middle East. Either way, he is putting my children's future, if not their lives, at grave risk. He is so dangerous and I feel so powerless to stop him that making fun of him is no longer funny to me. I am too scared.

Bush should be impeached for gross incompetence and malfeasance. He should then be arrested and tried for his crimes against humanity. I'll laugh about him later, if we survive.

Yeah, it was meant to be frightening, not funny I think. Spread it around let those 54 million asswipes know who they voted for.

[Raincrow]

whaaa? are you serious?
i've always held (since cold-war) that K-ville would be a (if we're talking BIG ww3) 1st strike target, given its proximity to Oak Ridge and its treasure-trove of nasties.

Knoxville will have lots of places to hide when Satan's cavalry comes. We also tuck our socks in our pants out here. Actually, it's putting our pants in our socks. To keep the chiggers out. I learned that in the first summer of the campaign.

[Tess]

If I recall my bible studies, we are told to find the caves during the Armaggedon. There are plenty of those around here, too.

My recollection is that women ready to bear children should head for the mountains and find a cave. Not that I am of child-bearing age, but what should folks take to the caves, reckon?

[F-Stop]

whaaa? are you serious?
i've always held (since cold-war) that K-ville would be a (if we're talking BIG ww3) 1st strike target, given its proximity to Oak Ridge and its treasure-trove of nasties.

My 7th Grade Social Studies teacher used to say that we were somewhere in the top 5 cities that would get hit during a first strike from Russia. Who knows?

If anyone is interested in survival tips, check this out handy book from the gubbmint: (Nuclear War Survival Skills; originally published in 1979 by ORNL)

http://www.oism.org/nwss/

[gypsy]

almost every place in america thinks they're on the top-something list of possible targets. that's because almost every place in america is within fallout distance of some kind of military installation or piece of important infrastructure. during the cold war, the gubmint encouraged that sort of thinking, because it helped keep people in a perpetual state of unease. (and of course, during the cold war, there were a lot of actual russkie warheads aimed at a lot of potential targets.) but i mean, i heard the same thing growing up in the wilds of upstate n.y., because there was a military base a little way away that was presumed to house nuclear weapons.

not that oak ridge is an impossible target. and not to make anyone feel unimportant or overlooked by al-qaida. but i think east tennessee is a pretty safe place to be.

[F-Stop]

not that oak ridge is an impossible target. and not to make anyone feel unimportant or overlooked by al-qaida. but i think east tennessee is a pretty safe place to be.

Everywhere but Sweetwater ;)

[knoxregressive]

spread your legs wide lean forward puckerup and kiss your ass goodbye

[Carl Snow]

not that oak ridge is an impossible target. and not to make anyone feel unimportant or overlooked by al-qaida. but i think east tennessee is a pretty safe place to be.

i'd say O-R is a delicious looking target to fanatics who have studied its history.
i'd also say that, yeah, it was a MUCH tastier target to "those damn reds" back in the cold war (i know it used to -yer right- scare me a bit).
and
Yeah ... that was what i meant (cold-war-wise) 'hit' k-town, 'take' O-R.
Still...
Being (one of) 'americas sercret city' / 'that a-bomb place'/ etc ... has got to have some fanatics foaming at the mouth.

[fluffy]

The difference between invading Iraq and Afghanistan and entering this conflict, where all sides have fighter planes and tanks and missiles and crap, will be startling enough.


where unfortunately the muslims have the advantage since they wont be wearing uniforms. so they will have the iranian soldiers AND wannabe martyrs on their side. thats not a good thing.

whats really scary is that, in worse case scenario, if we get bogged down in afghanistan, iraq, iran, syria, lebanon and israel, the hawks will start murmurs of use of nuclear weapons. after all we are stretched too thin right now as it is, there is no way we can handle going into 3 or 4 more countries right now, especially the size of iran.

and even worse than that, with US citizens losing loved ones in the military on a huge scale, that they might even consider nuclear weapon use a good idea.

[fluffy]

So, what should we be doing with our individual bad selves to prepare for the fallout of this possible WWIII or at least very unpleasant time? I don't have much in savings, but should I pull it out, put it under the mattress? Stock up on stuff? Duct tape, plastic wrap, courage, etc? Turn into more of a crazy lady than I already am? :) Start collecting toads, frogs, seeds, cats? (Serious question.)



anyone that has a gas guzzler better dump em now, cause only the rich are going to be able to afford gas.

[fluffy]

There's a lot of sword rattling going on but I'm guessing this won't get much farther than Lebenon, Syria and Isreal.

well, and iran too. and dont forget we are already heavily involved in 2 other countries in the area as well.


As paranoid as it sounds, though, my biggest fear is that Bushco is, as we speak, trying to figure out how to use this to stay in power beyond their present term.

given his current ratings and the fact that the majoirity of americans have finally realized that going into iraq was a bad idea, there is no way that will happen.

[Carl Snow]

and even worse than that, with US citizens losing loved ones in the military on a huge scale, that they might even consider nuclear weapon use a good idea.

i've been *shudders* thinking the same damn thing, Fluff; and from overheard gym/gas-station/etc-conversations like "we outta just nuke those bastards" and such, i think the 'nuke-'em' mindset reaches well past folks who have already lost kin/friends/etc to this insane war and deep into the psyche of the misinformned majority.

[fluffy]

i've been *shudders* thinking the same damn thing, Fluff; and from overheard gym/gas-station/etc-conversations like "we outta just nuke those bastards" and such, i think the 'nuke-'em' mindset reaches well past folks who have already lost kin/friends/etc to this insane war and deep into the psyche of the misinformned majority.


oy. heres hoping that at least the folks in congress keep their heads screwed on straight and would NEVER allow that to happen. id imagine the international community would fight back on that too. of course, bush never listened to them anyway, so why would he start now.

id say that instead of full on nuclear weaponry, hed use those 1/4 strenght ones to downplay the danger. still scary though.

heh, i just saw a headline on CNN titled "Bush asks Syria to intervene for peace". who says bush doesnt have a sense of humor?

[fluffy]

and from overheard gym/gas-station/etc-conversations like "we outta just nuke those bastards"


next time, turn to them and say "hey, there are some serial killers lose in phoenix. lets nuke em!".

on a serious note, im sure the conservative pundits will be spinning this into a good idea as well, which will only go to enforce the pro-nuke mindset of some folks.

israel is SO not worth all this. we really need a president with the balls to say "fuck it, youre on your own". i dont see how dragging the US into this has any positive points to it. we will suffer both economically and morale will plummet. israel started this, let them finish it(yeah i know their soldiers were captured, but they are really blowing it out of proportion).

[Tess]

There are what, 155,000 American soldiers that could get pinned down in the Middle East in this conflagration, if it erupts all around them? And, though they (Arabs) don't like each other, the don't like us more. NOBODY will stand with our soldiers, except maybe the Israelis. I think this puts our troops in very grave danger.

[Carl Snow]

israel is SO not worth all this. we really need a president with the balls to say "fuck it, youre on your own".

but for more reasons than i could type ... that'll never come to pass (imo). it'd be great; i juss dont see it happening in our lifetime(s).

[Hayduke]

but for more reasons than i could type ... that'll never come to pass (imo). it'd be great; i juss dont see it happening in our lifetime(s).
Not unless we can convince Bush that Israel is poor and has no health insurance.

[spinetingler]

oy. heres hoping that at least the folks in congress keep their heads screwed on straight and would NEVER allow that to happen.

Congress has nothing to say about it. They've already written a blank authorization for the Bush war regime/machine.

Especially when it comes down to using nuclear weapons - Bush has the button for that, not Congress, and he damn well won't run anything at that level of classification by Congress.

[~Rumormonger~]

well, and iran too. and dont forget we are already heavily involved in 2 other countries in the area as well.

I don't thing Iran will get involved outside of a suppler/funding role. Isreal probably won't attack them for that.

Syria, being a hostile border country will get attacked as a means of protecting their flank. Isreal is calling up their reserves so, they're definitely preparing for a ground war. They'll probably want to push through, and clean out, the Bekaah Valley since that's the Hizb'allah stronghold. That will leave their flank exposed so, Isreal will attack Syria's Air, communication and close in artillery capabilities.

As long as Congress keeps the purse strings closed so BushWar Inc. can't get involved outside of a diplomatic role there's no chance we'll draw Iran into this. So, I don't think they'll be involved.

Like I said, that's the optamist in me talking.


given his current ratings and the fact that the majoirity of americans have finally realized that going into iraq was a bad idea, there is no way that will happen.

I should be more clear on this. If they're gonna do this, I don't thing BushCo will try to do this with anything resembling popular support. Actually I think they'll try to use their lack of popularity to their advantage.

What I think they'll need to try to do is create a wedge between the people and the military & police. To do that they'll need to foment lots of antigovernment violence.

That's where your worry's of nukes comes in. If they can pull the nuke card that will create a lot of protests stateside. They foment those protests, get the people protesting all worked up and scary, then go in with billy clubs and bullets. Creating more protests. They handle that with even more brutality and on and on until the police and military are in a serious us v. them mode with the general populace.

Then they take "emergency" actions which includes "temporarily" suspending elections, congress, etc.

That's why I brought up the...


guns 'n' amo, and firewood and non-perishable food and bottled water

If I thought BushCo was going to try to do this with popular support I wouldn't be thinking the above could be necessary.

Yes, that's the paranoid me talking.

[fluffy]

Yes, that's the paranoid me talking.

just what i was thinking;

http://animatedtv.about.com/library/graphics/kohdale.jpg

[gypsy]

this picture sez a lot, about a lot of things:

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/07/16/world/16mideat.large1.jpg

caption: Residents of Beirut watched from their rooftop as Israeli bombs fell on parts of the city today as warplanes attacked Hezbollah targets.

[gypsy]

(among the things it says is, those dudes really need some beer.)

[metulj]

Rapture Ready (http://www.rr-bb.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20)

This is more fun than a 3-legged dog.

[Carl Snow]

anyone that has a gas guzzler better dump em now, cause only the rich are going to be able to afford gas.

Yup!

(Carls ride in cars Cin’s drive unless she’s sick or he really-really needs something from the Conoco on Tazewell Pike)

Sooo
Cin “went out” in our big-ass red gas-gulping Dodge Durango a few weeks ago and returned in “something different”, asking me to “get in and try a ride/drive back to the dealership” with her to see if I liked it or not and so forth. I did. To its credit; the ole red monster could pack a bandload or gear in the rear easily and had a fairly nice stereo (not as nice as Carls like but sufficient to the time spent riding shotgun, or to the store.) Thing is … its door locks were always fuckin’ up ($), it needed 4 new tires ($$), it had 90,000 miles on the odometer (potential -$), and drank gas so fast you’d think the Conoco was its girlfriend and the pumps were the only bar in town … the two lovers met OFTEN; far, far too often, and ‘folks were starting to talk’ (well, me ‘n’ Cin anyways).
Sooo
We ride out in the new thang and I notice the nice stereo, Cin had it on 90.3, we rawked loudly towards Rusty Wallace. It rode well, and looked simple/clean and very gear/other-big-stuff friendly. It had a stick … we aint had a stick inna while, and missed it (bikers GOTTA shift LOL) …
And
(We’ve had 14-cars/2-trucks in our 14 years of marriage) She had already found the green-horn (she kin smell the fakers from the real newbie’s) and talked him inta giving us way more than expected for the red beast. When there is haggling to be done call Cin, she’s the Rick Flair of horse-trading … Still; I haggled more … small price drop from her wonderful 'opening moves'.
Anyways
I got the low-down on the pimp-o-licious stereo (the prev. owner had had installed) while watching the cool shit this new ride could do; tricks like seats folding down, then up and away … seats coming out, carabineers everywhere for gear/hardware/etc tie-down, and the nifty suicide doors …………………………….ETC
I opened my jaw (seeing the hook) and said “sure honey, looks like a great deal”.

We rode home in a 2003 black and grey Honda (yes I said Honda) Element.
I like it more and more as the days go by … more importantly though Cin LOVES it and it is saving us a TON of money.
IE:
On the way home we grabbed 20 bucks worth of gas (the dealer-pumps were locked) and it lasted us almost two weeks, were the Dodge would have made it 4 days or less.
The Payments are less of a strain on our community purse … a LOT less of a strain! … And they run out the same time the old Dodge would have been paid-off, suh-weet! It has 30,000 (not 90,000) miles on it.
Yup,
Cin and I now have a Black ‘n’ Gray Honda Element and love it! Its saving us money while serving every function the old Dodge did, and more!

I'm not gonna start smelling my own farts (unless its bedtime and I'm under covers) like the hybrid-guys on the South Park hybrid-car episode, anytime soon (it’s not a hybrid fer one thang) but damn! This puppy is fun … and did I mention the savings in gas/maintenance/Payments and the pimp-o-licious stereo and its big cargo-hold yet?

…[B]The Blab-Connection =
…a Blabber “lit the fuse” in our brains …
My good buddy JT drives a red and gray Element that Cin and I talked about a lot each time he and his son (a great student –guitar-) would pull up to the house…
SOLD!

Thanks JT! Thanks Honda! Blow me OPEC! :)

[metulj]

I have been driving a Honda Insight hybrid the last month (long story). With Northeast City driving and running the AC, I get 49 MPH. It won't get out of its own way, but damn it sips the gas. I am going to miss it when it is gone. Luckily, I still have the Yamaha Vino. That's 105mpg, buddy. I look like a total fucking spazz on it but who cares?

[fluffy]

[SIZE="4"]We rode home in a 2003 black and grey Honda (yes I said Honda) [B]Element.


welcome to the club of element owners! we have that exact same year and model. cept ours is grey and silver. and something to waste even more time online;

http://www.elementownersclub.com/

just watch going on upramps, it doesnt have a lot of pickup. definitely not what you are used to with the durango, im sure.

[James]

Rapture Ready (http://www.rr-bb.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20)


I, for one, am definitely ready for the Rapture. I can't wait for all those balloon-heads to dissapear.

[~Rumormonger~]

I, for one, am definitely ready for the Rapture.

You and Fab Five Freddy

[James]

You and Fab Five Freddy

We ready! How-bout-you!
http://www.stanpeskett.com/archive/pics/jmbcol.jpg

[Carl Snow]

welcome to the club of element owners! we have that exact same year and model. cept ours is grey and silver. and something to waste even more time online;

http://www.elementownersclub.com/

just watch going on upramps, it doesnt have a lot of pickup. definitely not what you are used to with the durango, im sure.

the pickups actually really really good, Bro-Fluff, (i really dont drive much)
but yeah the D was a bit quicker; it was a auto though so not THAT much quicker. Cin has the thing figured out like Mario A. now lol.

So
I went a'lookin omn gooogle at 2003 Elements but could not find images of your paint/plastic scheme and mine for a side-by-side looksee (it'd be interesting)
Cubes for the link !

cs

[fluffy]

the pickups actually really really good, Bro-Fluff, (i really dont drive much)
but yeah the D was a bit quicker; it was a auto though so not THAT much quicker. Cin has the thing figured out like Mario A. now lol.

is yours a 4 or 6?


So
I went a'lookin omn gooogle at 2003 Elements but could not find images of your paint/plastic scheme and mine for a side-by-side looksee (it'd be interesting)

mine is pretty common, one that they offered for years now;

http://www.carfinancing.net/pictures/2004-honda-element-dx-ex.jpg

my fav is in the orange though. unfortunately they didnt have it in that color when we needed it.

have you seen the concept of it for 2007?

http://autonet.ca/Spotlight/Concepts/2006/04/14/ElementSC_l.jpg

i cant say i like it as much. looks too much like an XB, which i like, but why try and look like it too?

and then there is toyota's version of the element, the FJ;

http://images.usatoday.com/money/gallery/toyota/fj-cruiser-concept.jpg

nice, but more expensive.

[dilettantedude]

not that oak ridge is an impossible target. and not to make anyone feel unimportant or overlooked by al-qaida. but i think east tennessee is a pretty safe place to be.

Don't forget that we are dealing with terrorists, not the USSR. They aren't trying to knock out US military capability, but create fear and make a global political statement. I'd be amazed if they didn't laugh out of the room anyone who suggested OR.

[dilettantedude]

Also, just for fun, you might keep track of the

Rapture Index! (http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html)

It currently stands at 155, which means Fasten your seat belts!

[dilettantedude]

Wrt how to save on gas, my wife and I have had Priuses now since 2000. The last model is great. It's a hatchback, and the rear seats fold down, and there's a HUGE amount of room back there. It has more leg and head room up front than a Lincoln Towncar, and plenty of room in the back for 3 adults. Driving to Florida yesterday, I averaged about 51.7 mpg at 80+ mph for nearly 600 miles. Unless I go on a trip, a tank lasts me a month and costs ~$25.

It has all the power you'd ever need, a huge gps computer screen, and a seriously kick-ass stereo system. I'd never buy anything else again.

[spinetingler]

In the interest of bettering the 20mpg I was getting in my Volvo (and being tired of pouring money into that pit) I went out and got Toyoto Matrix yesterday (gets in the 30's).

I forgot to check to see if it will hold my 3/4 bass, though. Oops. Oh well, still got the wife's minivan.


http://images.automotive.com/color/300X187/2006/Toyota/USB60TOC172B0808.jpg