racism, multiculturalism, "tolerance" and the top 10

[gypsy]

rescuing this post from the morality-high society thread, which seems hopelessly mired in topics that interest me a great deal less. i didn't really have anything to say about that thing (SOME PEOPLE STILL RACIST shocker!), but was trying to cheer up bookeddy, who suggested that things weren't getting "better" (however one might define that) in re: racial/cultural "tolerance" (however one might define that). it's entirely possible that nobody else finds this interesting, but at least here it will have its own thread:

i think there's been big big leaps, taking the society as a whole. but the problem is that the leaps don't happen in the society "as a whole," they happen one person at a time. so that even as what you might call the average level of racial tolerance increases, you can still find plenty of, shall we say, resistant strains of intolerance. and intolerance still wields considerable power. white-on-black racism specifically has been sufficiently stigmatized so that it's hard for people to espouse it publicly without some kind of personal or professional repercussions. that's why the fights over white-on-black racism have moved into more amorphous, harder-to-prove realms like institutional racism, with everybody wielding statistics.

but obviously other forms of intolerance have yet to be nearly as stigmatized, which is why half the u.s. senate (almost) can feel free to grandstand on a gay-bashing constitutional amendment, and a good number of elected representatives and fox news bloviators can run around warning us of the brown menace invading from the south. so it's not like "intolerance" as a general ploy for tribal powermongering has lost its bite. but i do think it has diminishing returns. i've seen some of the smarter, more candid conservative commentators acknowledge that they can maybe ride out homophobia for another few election cycles and that's it; and a lot of republicans are already scared about pissing off latinos, not for any moral reasons but just because there's a lot of them (and there are going to be more). of such practical considerations is "tolerance" made.

this is also why i think white liberals need to pay a little more attention to pop culture -- which i think counts for at least as much as whatever happens in washington. washington is always behind the curve, almost by definition. let's take a look at the current billboard top 10:

1. "promiscuous" -- nelly furtado ft. timbaland
(portuguese-canadian singer teamed with black american rapper/producer)

2. "hips don't lie" -- shakira ft. wyclef jean
(colombian-italian-lebanese-macedonian singer teamed with haitian-american rapper/singer)

3. "crazy" -- gnarls barkley
(black singer/rapper from atlanta teamed with white new york/georgia dj)

4. "me & u" -- cassie
(american r&b singer, born to a Filipino father and Mexican/ African-American/ Hawiian mother)

5. "it's goin' down" -- yung joc
(black rapper from atlanta)

6. "ain't no other man" -- christina aguilera
(ecuadorean-american r&b singer)

7. "ridin'" -- chamillionaire ft. krayzie bone
(black houston rapper; birth name: hakeem seriki)

8. "unfaithful" -- rihanna
(r&b singer from barbados, with an Irish-Barbadian father and a black Guyanese mother)

9. "snap yo fingers" -- lil jon ft. e-40 & sean paul of the youngbloodz
(atlanta producer/mc with an oakland-area rapper and another atlanta rapper)

10. "so what" -- field mob ft. ciara
(rap duo from albany, ga. (population 76,000), with atlanta r&b singer)

a few things about that top 10 jump out at me. first, the continued dominance of southern hip-hop is pretty remarkable, given that it's entering its, what, 5th year or so. black southerners no longer have to migrate to new york or detroit or l.a. to have a cultural impact. (rappers in new york are complaining that they can't get played on the local hip-hop stations because it's all full up with southerners.) second, there sure aren't many white people there -- and of the three who could check a caucasian box on a census form if they wanted to (shakira, nelly furtado, christina aguilera), two aren't even american, and the third (xtina) records bilingually. (unless dangermouse is white. which i thought he was, but now i think he's not. photographic evidence is inconclusive. in any event, white dudes are seriously underrepresented on this list.)

and third, maybe most interesting to me, is all the hemispheric hybridization going on there. i didn't even know til i made this list how dense and multi-racial-cultural cassie and rihanna's backgrounds are, but more broadly i think the entrance of latino/carribean culture solidly into the american mainstream is of enormous significance -- and it's not going to be headed off by any wall at the border.

so don't despair, yo. turn on your radio.

[gypsy]

(i guess it partly just annoys me how glibly people dismiss pop culture -- which the last 100 years, if not the last many centuries, suggests you do at your peril.)

[metulj]

(i'll play. The interstitial talk about race in that thread was actually pretty good. Here's my counter post with some adjustment. Thanks, JFM. You should come over and check out our'n new house. I have beer and a place that delivers beer after you are too drunk to go around the corner and get it.)

Which is a reification of people of color being cast as minstrels and stepinfetchits? Let's look at the Top 10 private corporations in America:

* Cargill
* Koch Industries
* Mars
* PricewaterhouseCoopers
* Publix Super Markets
* Bechtel
* Ernst & Young
* C&S Wholesale Grocers
* SemGroup
* Meijer

Hrm. Now it is tough to call a company "white," but these are not exactly the product of Small Business Loans....
______

[SnM]

gypsy wrote:

i guess it partly just annoys me how glibly people dismiss pop culture

****

I'm not sure people were glibly dismissing pop culture -- they just seemed to disagree with the notion that a list of top ten pop songs with multicultural influences = hope. As ernie wrote, one could probably cull such a list from the '60s, and from the '70s. You seemed to dismiss that point as irrelevant.

[fluffy]

i think pop culture has more to do with the increase in tolerance in the last say 25 years than just about any other outlet has. more than politics, definitely, since it seems more people are paying attention to American Idol than presidental or or congressional news.

ive seen more upward trends of respect towards minorities and homosexuals in media than i have in politics. it might not be the best way to go about it, but the more more racists are forced to see a TV show or movie or hear a song featuring a person of minority status is definitely a good thing. it chips away at their wall of ignorance, eventually(or hopefully) causing them to accept this person, however grudgingly.

[fluffy]

I'm not sure people were glibly dismissing pop culture -- they just seemed to disagree with the notion that a list of top ten pop songs with multicultural influences = hope. As ernie wrote, one could probably cull such a list from the '60s, and from the '70s. You seemed to dismiss that point as irrelevant.


id say a top 10 list from say 1975 would feature a lot less diversity than it would in 2005. in fact, here are the top 10 songs of that year;


1. "Love Will Keep Us Together" - Captain & Tennille
2. "Rhinestone Cowboy" - Glen Campbell
3. "Fame" - David Bowie
4. "Shining Star" - Earth, Wind and Fire
5. "My Eyes Adored You" - Frankie Valli
6. "Thank God I'm A Country Boy" - John Denver
7. "Philadelphia Freedom" - Elton John
8. "One Of These Nights" - Eagles
9. "Pick Up The Pieces" - Average White Band
10. "At Seventeen" - Janis Ian

for the most part, thats a pretty white list.

[F-Stop]

gypsy wrote:

i guess it partly just annoys me how glibly people dismiss pop culture

****

I'm not sure people were glibly dismissing pop culture -- they just seemed to disagree with the notion that a list of top ten pop songs with multicultural influences = hope. As ernie wrote, one could probably cull such a list from the '60s, and from the '70s. You seemed to dismiss that point as irrelevant.

I think Gypsy did indeed make a counter point to that, something about how many of the artists and groups from the 60's and 70's were usually beholden to a predominately white A&R management structure...

Of course now Jay-Z and Dr. Dre are evidence of some change toward balance.

[metulj]

i think pop culture has more to do with the increase in tolerance in the last say 25 years than just about any other outlet has. more than politics, definitely, since it seems more people are paying attention to American Idol than presidental or or congressional news.


But what makes it 'pop?' Who makes the decisions to promote this or that?

[fluffy]

But what makes it 'pop?' Who makes the decisions to promote this or that?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_culture

[Michael]

I dunno. There's something to be said about the true ethnicity of the list. It's a change from Elvis' whiteface of black music. But then Eminem would still sellout a bigger venue than Jay Z. I think Metulj's got a point about the minstrel shows. I don't think that the entertainment industry's a good barometer. It's often as much exploitation as advancement.
~m.

[metulj]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_culture

I would like to suggest a moratorium on using wikipedia as a reference. Talk about groupspeak central.

[fluffy]

I don't think that the entertainment industry's a good barometer. It's often as much exploitation as advancement.
~m.


ill agree it often starts that way. but often, after a while it evolves into real dialogue. look at the early 90s in movies and TV for the sterotype of gay men, for instance. it was through those initial jokey stereoypes of gays that we got to things like Queer as Folk and Brokeback Mountain. now while gays are still not as accepted, i think that events like these move us that way, towards a more realistic discussion.

sometimes you have to get all the jokes and stereotypes out of the way and THEN get to a genuine dialogue. i think that pop culture guides us to that point. sure, the white guy living in a small town in wyoming is going to take a little longer to get to the same level as a guy in brooklyn, but i think he gets there eventually.

[fluffy]

I would like to suggest a moratorium on using wikipedia as a reference. Talk about groupspeak central.

well then;

http://www.wsu.edu/~amerstu/pop/tvrguide.html

[metulj]

well then;

http://www.wsu.edu/~amerstu/pop/tvrguide.html

There is something creepy about the professor's name: T.V. Reed.

[Michael]

I'm not dismissing pop culture. I'm just saying that the top ten selling records in the country comes more from the record lable's steering and promotion than from true social trends.

On the other hand, Motown probably did more to break down racism than the Civil Rights Act of the same era.
~m.

[Lee G]

I think Gyps is onto something.

I mean, I think we can agree that white Baby Boomers--a generation galvanized by black music, whether delivered by Elvis or otherwise--were generally more tolerant and less racist than the generation before them. (Not hating on generations past, per se, but as the man says, those were different times.) In the case of what we think of as '60s counterculture (protests, brotherhood, etc.), they made a point of it.

As a result, thanks to those changes and other changes in the culture, I would go further to generalize that an even greater number of my Gen X peers better understand what racism is and the many, often insidious ways in which it manifests itself; I'm not saying that Gen Xer's aren't just as likely to be racist as anyone else, but they're better equipped not to be. This is also the generation of white folks that, to one degree or another, embraced hip-hop on a mass scale.

If I had had a kid in my 20s, he or she would be old enough now to be that next generation and of prime pop-consuming age. And I think that there's plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that racial barriers, while not completely removed, are less important and less heeded now than in generations before. Kids today (to use a loaded phrase) have never known a world without hip-hop, and for many white kids, it is as seminal to their view of the world as, I dunno, indie/alt rock was for many of us. As African-American culture--which hip-hop still is, at least nominally--becomes more and more indistinguishable from so-called mainstream (read: white) culture, that will only be more and more the case, I think.

This is a complicated issue, natch. There's the question of whether hip-hop fosters an accurate view of African-American culture (it some ways it does, but in most respects not even close). There are still plenty of racists around, and the growing unacceptability of it in many segments of society has, in fact, served to drive it to a more underground, subconscious level. But I think that racism is progressively becoming less and less acceptable and prevalent in American society, although obviously we still have a long way to go. And at least here in Baltimore, class is almost as important a dividing line as race, no matter which side of the racial divide you're on. But that is perhaps a topic for another thread.

[fluffy]

I'm not dismissing pop culture. I'm just saying that the top ten selling records in the country comes more from the record lable's steering and promotion than from true social trends.

oh im with you there. but then, no one is forcing anyone to buy these records. the industry trying to create trends has been the case for decades now.


On the other hand, Motown probably did more to break down racism than the Civil Rights Act of the same era.


music is the univeral language, after all.

[fluffy]

There's the question of whether hip-hop fosters an accurate view of African-American culture (it some ways it does, but in most respects not even close).

id say that 90% of music, and especially in pop music(after all, it tends to cater to teens, who are about as unrealistic a demographic as you can get) is this way and has been for a long time. at least as long as MTV has been around, since it put image to the music, in the same way that movies interpret books for us, which is either good or bad depending on how you look at it.



There are still plenty of racists around, and the growing unacceptability of it in many segments of society has, in fact, served to drive it to a more underground, subconscious level. But I think that racism is progressively becoming less and less acceptable and prevalent in American society

ieve posted this before, but jsut to drive the point home;

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=627

[Lee G]

I believe posted this before, but jsut to drive the point home;

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=627

With all due respect, I was talking about the mainstream, not the fringes. There are plenty of people who cross the street when they see a young black man coming or have a beef about suggested immigration policy reforms, but the overwhelming majority of them don't join hate groups, this or any other year.

[pixeljockey]

id say a top 10 list from say 1975 would feature a lot less diversity than it would in 2005. in fact, here are the top 10 songs of that year


so, diversity is making the top 10 worse musically. false syllogism? i'm old? because those are some serious melodies there in '75

[~Rumormonger~]

Not really proof of anything, just an interesting aside:

My ex's 10 y.o. daughter got an invite to a birthday party a few month's ago. On the back of the invite was a list of the types of gifts the birthday girl would like to receive. Lot's of typical preteen girl type stuff but in the middle of the list was "CDs - Hip-Hop or Country."

[gypsy]

id say a top 10 list from say 1975 would feature a lot less diversity than it would in 2005.

yeah, exactly. there was a watershed week in the 1990s when for the first time in the history of the billboard chart, all top 10 artists were black. it fluctuates a lot, obviously -- if you look at the whole top 40 right now, there are plenty of white acts, both of the country and rock varieties. but if the question is one about the direction of change (rather than the assessment of whether we've arrived at any given point), then i think it's significant. and hopeful. (even if the songs are all about getting high and getting laid.)(because, really, that's most of what cole porter wrote about too.)

and i think what's happened the last few years with latino culture is really remarkable. and their emergence as a political force -- capable of flooding the streets of major cities with protesters -- was preceded by their rise as a commercial force. spanish-language pop stations have proliferated like crazy across the country over the last several years -- and those stations in turn served as cheerleaders and organizers for the protests. these things go hand in hand. which is why the american family association fights like hell against positive portrayals of gay people on tv, in movies, etc. -- because they very correctly see those things as indicative of where the culture is heading. (and the smart ones know they already lost.)

[gypsy]

so, diversity is making the top 10 worse musically. false syllogism? i'm old? because those are some serious melodies there in '75

almost willing to let this pass without comment, except to agree that it's possible this year will not give us the equal of "fame." and to note that there were people in 1975 longing for the golden years of bing crosby and glenn miller.

[jack frost]

The thing is, Jess, lots of white people both listen to racially diverse music and yet are still racists. It is unfortunately true, in my personal experience, that someone who will gladly pop in a 50 Cent or Jay-Z album will still call people "niggers".

[James]

Hmm...
This idea of top-ten-as-barometer-of-cultureal-change seems very truthy to me. It makes perfect sense if you think about it because it's reflective of the whole of youth culture.

Yes, youth culture. Face it blabbers, you're no longer part of it and neither are the creators of most all media outlets. That's why we miss seeing it. We've got a multi-cultural society growing up between our toes and and if you can't take off your wingtips you'll never know it.

[the idiot]

"The thing is, Jess, lots of white people both listen to racially diverse music and yet are still racists. It is unfortunately true, in my personal experience, that someone who will gladly pop in a 50 Cent or Jay-Z album will still call people "niggers"."

Sure. And lots of people who would never use the word "nigger" really hate contemporary pop music and rap. They're uncomfortable with racially diverse culture. It's all pretty complicated.

[SnM]

fluffy wrote:

id say a top 10 list from say 1975 would feature a lot less diversity than it would in 2005.

****

And I'd say I can find weekly charts from the early '70s that have soul acts as at least 4, 5, or 6 of the top acts. And again from the later '70s. And again from the late '80s and early '90s on. As gypsy wrote, it fluctuates. My only point in referencing that was to say that people didn't seem to be dismissing pop culture, just not equating a multicultural top ten with hope as gypsy was.

Here, look at it this way: The Cashbox chart for the week ending April 15, 1972 looked like this:

TW LW 2WK 3WK WKS
1 ROCKIN’ ROBIN
Michael Jackson (Motown 1197) 4 5 11 7
2 THE FIRST TIME EVER I SAW YOUR FACE
Roberta Flack (Atlantic 2864) 5 14 33 7
3 A HORSE WITH NO NAME
America (Warner Bros. 7555) 1 1 1 9
4 IN THE RAIN
Dramatics (Volt 4075) 6 7 10 9
5 I GOTCHA
Joe Tex (Dial 1010) 7 8 14 12
6 HEART OF GOLD
Neil Young (Reprise 1065) 2 2 2 12
7 PUPPY LOVE
Donny Osmond (MGM 14367) 3 3 3 9
8 BETCHA BY GOLLY, WOW
Stylistics (Avco 4591) 13 17 22 9
9 A COWBOY’S WORK IS NEVER DONE
Sonny & Cher (Kapp 2163) 14 16 21 9
10 DAY DREAMING
Aretha Franklin (Atlantic 2866) 11 18 32 6

Six of those ten acts are compromised of people of color (Jackson, Flack, Dramatics, Tex, Stylistics, and Franklin).

What are we to do with this information? Are we to assume that this list represents a point when the country was 40 per cent racist in its buying habits? And a top ten list comprised solely of acts of color represents a 0 per cent racist country? Of course not, that's not what gypsy means, it's not what you mean (I hope).

As usual, I hope gypsy is right in his cultural barometer readings. I'm not so sanguine. Historically, tastes and fashions do move up down the cultural poles from high to low, and low to high, and have for centuries. But the movements of those tastes don't necessarily represent a sea change in attitudes.

As an analogy, easily pooh-poohed, but nonetheless, for what it's worth: In the past, all of these items have been the exclusive purview of the masses of lower classes: potatoes, jeans, suntans and hillbilly music.

The rich, they got all of those now. But I don't see the divide between the haves and the have-nots shrinking just 'cause our betters eat taters, squeeze their fannies into jeans, work on their tans and call Willy Nelson a genius.

[bookeddy]

A belated thanks for trying to cheer me up. I only have a minute, so let me say that my initial reaction was the "one or two generations" part of kag's post and you backed me up on that one later I think.... This is an interesting thread and I look forward to reading it tonight.

re: wikipedia..., I read this the other day and found it interesting:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/lanier06/lanier06_index.html

[gypsy]

my point with the top 10 isn't just white vs. black, it's the whole range of cultural things going on there, the hybridization of races, cultures, etc. the top 10 today is demonstrably more multicultural in lots of different ways than it was 30 years ago -- because our country is, and so is our mass culture.

and i think seeing pop culture as the purview of the lower classes is all wrong. pop culture has pretty effectively conquered the class system. there are a lot more millionaires who are serious hendrix or nirvana fans than millionaires who are serious opera fans, e.g. the old high/low distinctions are pretty well eroded.


But I don't see the divide between the haves and the have-nots shrinking just 'cause our betters eat taters, squeeze their fannies into jeans, work on their tans and call Willy Nelson a genius.

that's a different issue. the discussion was about a functioning multicultural society, not about economic inequalities (which cut across races, cultures, etc). but where they might intersect is that the stigmatization of "others" is a traditional tool of the powerful to keep people with shared economic interests from uniting, by dividing them along lines of culture, race, religion, etc. to whatever extent those divides get harder to exploit, , it is easier for economic interests to come to the fore. not that that happens easily, but it does happen and has happened at politically volatile points in the past.

[jack frost]

Well, I think that cable television and the Internet have basically forced multiculturalism. When your information-flow options extend beyond your local newspaper, there's going to be a natural blending of influences.

[F-Stop]

Well, I think that cable television and the Internet have basically forced multiculturalism. When your information-flow options extend beyond your local newspaper, there's going to be a natural blending of influences.

Living in a large city like NYC does it too. You don't get much exposure to other cultures poking your head from between the ears of corn ala Hee-Haw out in the Fox and Friends Heartland...

I want to visit NYC again. It's been too long.

[Lee G]

my point with the top 10 isn't just white vs. black, it's the whole range of cultural things going on there, the hybridization of races, cultures, etc. the top 10 today is demonstrably more multicultural in lots of different ways than it was 30 years ago -- because our country is, and so is our mass culture.

True, and I didn't mean to short that very good point. My take has been shaped by my time in Baltimore, where multiculturalism is still largely a matter of black and white. (Though the Latino population in Fells Point is exploding, and more and more non-European immigrants come to the area each year.)

[SnM]

gypsy wrote:

i think seeing pop culture as the purview of the lower classes is all wrong.

****

Once again, I don't think anybody said that. I didn't. I said the opposite. Things move up and down the cultural slide. What was once exclusively the purview of the lower classes is now shared by all. Ooo-ooo-ooo-woo-ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo, sha-la-la-la-la. We're on the way to Shambala. Peace is at hand.

I understand that you are optimistic about the close of divisions in a "functioning multicultural society." (You're optimistic that people are going to rise up in anger and lash out against those invading their privacy too, as I recall...) But I don't think we have anything close to "functioning multicultural society," and there's still plenty of time for the fluctuations to go the other way, although I doubt that we could have total backlash.

Nonetheless, assuming we get more multicultural...What happens if, in a few years, the haves have most of the advantages and the rest of us have "multiculture" and massive healthcare bills? Will we all share the land?

That said, as always, go with god and your good faith. It's a good thing.

[gordongekkojr]

Gypsy,

I don't know if your argument that we as a society have become more tolerant of other races based on the ethnicity of pop singers topping the single's charts is real convincing.

Just b/c white folks allow colored folks to entertain them doesn't mean that whitey now sees black people as equals.

I'm not just talking about pop singers and rappers either...I'd include athletes. Professional athletes in the most popular sports in America are overwhelmingly African-American (football, basketball and baseball).

At least, I can't help but think about that way every now and then when I watch sports. In a way, they are still minstrels but now they're minstrels who get paid millions of dollars.

I was at Calhoun's on the River a couple of weeks ago and Albert Haynesworth was there with his wife. If you don't know she's a cute little white girl. She's also about 5'2" and he's gigantic but that's something altogether different.

Anyway, I'm sure most of the folks in that restaurant loved to watch him play at UT and a lot of them probably still cheer for him in the pros. But he still got lots of weird/dirty looks from several patrons b/c of his white wife.

It was a "Hey, you can play football for our favorite team but you can't have our women" kind of look.

[ernie]

[I] was trying to cheer up bookeddy, who suggested that things weren't getting "better" (however one might define that) in re: racial/cultural "tolerance" (however one might define that).

So why didn't the extension of the Civil Rights Act just breeze through the House?

[gypsy]

-- because there's a difference between "making progress" and making everything peachy.
-- because especially in an environment of growing economic uncertainty, there is still political milage to be gained by scapegoating and stigmatizing.
-- because raising the average level of tolerance or acceptance of different races, cultures, sexual orientations, etc., is just raising the average.
-- because change takes time.

i also think these repeated references to musicians and athletes as minstrels are both condescending and deeply misinformed. (possibly even...nah, i won't say it.)

and i completely disagree that we don't have a functioning multicultural society. we absolutely do. that doesn't mean everyone loves everybody else. it mostly means that a lot of people mostly don't hate a lot of other people. or at least are able to suppress whatever hostility they feel in their general conduct of daily affairs. it's an achievement that shouldn't be slighted or underestimated.

and no, it's not that i think there's going to be any particular "rising up" (although you get occasional bursts of that, like the pro-immigrant protests). it's that the society as a whole is undergoing major structural changes, which are considerably more visible in our popular culture -- what people watch, listen to, read and eat -- than they are in our hidebound and almost by definition reactionary political culture.

[gypsy]

Anyway, I'm sure most of the folks in that restaurant loved to watch him play at UT and a lot of them probably still cheer for him in the pros. But he still got lots of weird/dirty looks from several patrons b/c of his white wife.

i can believe that.

what i'm suggesting is that it might make a difference 15 years from now if the people sitting at calhoun's are people who grew up watching shakira and nelly furtado bumping and grinding with wyclef and timbaland. 15 years ago, interracial sex was still a rare enough thing in the mass media that spike lee made a whole "controversial" movie about it. now it's casually represented in the top two songs on the hit parade. not that there's been some 180 degree turn at any point, of course not. this is all much more evolutionary than revolutionary.

[gypsy]

(and it's worth reflecting on and recognizing the changes in the culture that have made it no big deal for shakira and wyclef to bump and grind. is what i'm saying. and it's the kind of thing that's easy to overlook if you don't pay attention to what's going on around you.)

[ernie]

But gypsy, extending the Civil Rights Act is not a matter of either "making progress" or "making everything peachy." It is a matter of maintaining the progress that has already been made.

Look, I think I have already said that I agree that things are much better than they used to be. I agree that there is greater integration and tolerance socially, as well as politically, especially in urban America. But much more needs to be done and I do not think we should relax either our vigilance or our efforts just because popular media is more multicultural than it used to be.

[SnM]

ernie wrote:

Look, I think I have already said that I agree that things are much better than they used to be.
****

You did? I missed that. But I think things are better, just not so much as all this talk of functioning multicultural societies would have it, and not so much that it couldn't easily be destroyed by those divisions between have and have-nots that we're not talking about.

But that was the point of my analogy. The rich consume pretty much the same things as do the poor and the increasingly desperate middle class. They all share a culture; but they don't share the same political interests or the same values.

As for the classes, so for the races. They may consume the same things, but it's still a long way to sharing the same political interests or even the same values. Tribalism isn't so easily vanquished.

So- if hispanic populations are gerrymandered into inconseqential voting districts? And if the black vote is split by pressures of economy versus progressive social action? And if the economic squeeze of these times is not a fluctuation but a trend for the middle class of all races? And if our healthcare system can't keep up with our rapidly aging society or hell, if it can't sustain just one major healthcare crisis (as recent reports indicate it cannot)? And if the poor more and more are sent to fight wars overseas? And if-?

I know that the eventual result of a functioning multicultural society would be good for this world. I'm just not sure that it can survive the short-term challenges this country presents to its viability- no, to its relevancy.

[gypsy]

i don't so much disagree with you guys as have a different sense of relative importance of political culture vs. popular culture. i think there's a tendency to obsess over political culture because it's the most structured thing we have, and -- by its formal nature -- the easiest way to measure things. but it tends to lead to a focus on what is almost inevitably the end of the process of change, so that change gets marked by the passage of amendments and laws. but it is always an imperfect reflection of what's actually going on in the broader culture, partly because (as snm notes) the political culture is so easily skewed by a small number of people with a whole lot of money, and partly because the political reification of change generally only happens after the change has for the most part already occurred. (the judicial branch is the big exception there, because -- as both liberals and conservatives have lamented at different points -- it can declare sudden, major changes by fiat. in practice, though, even that tends to come through a series of steps over time.)

i'm not saying everything's roses. there are some other interesting -- and troubling -- questions raised by pop culture, particularly in the specific case of lower-income black men who (by various measures) are one group that has tended to get left behind, economically. what does it mean that that is the case even as black men have assumed a historically unprecdented place of power in popular culture? well, good question. there are interesting theories about it. i tend to think the legacies of slavery and segregation weigh most heavily on black men, by a significant margin, and that we're just not far enough along the curve yet. so, contrary to bill cosby, i would tend to see the hip-hoppers and the b-ballers as guys helping to lead the way out of that, rather than as malignant influences holding them back. but that debate's likely to continue for a while. (i also think the stupid war on drugs has dramatically exacerbated the situation.)

but anyway, don't ascribe more rosy tint to my outlook than is there. the point of the initial post was, there's a lot more going on in the culture than is maybe credited by people who pay more attention to cspan than mtv. i can find plenty of things to get disheartened about, without looking very hard. but there are countervailing trends too, and they are trends largely out of anyone's control. pop culture gives me more reason to be hopeful than any other major arena of american life -- and it's a big arena.

[fluffy]

Living in a large city like NYC does it too. You don't get much exposure to other cultures poking your head from between the ears of corn ala Hee-Haw out in the Fox and Friends Heartland...

thats not necessarily true. there is just as much racism in big cities, it just might not get as much attention. living in boston showed me that people are just as ignorant and willing to throw around racial slurs as they were in the small towns of the south. yes there is more multiculturalism in a large city, but it doesnt change racist attitude as much as some people think.

and i know just as many big city folks into Fox News and Nascar. remember that half an hour out of any big city is a small towns, just like anywhere else in the country.

[fluffy]

With all due respect, I was talking about the mainstream, not the fringes. There are plenty of people who cross the street when they see a young black man coming or have a beef about suggested immigration policy reforms, but the overwhelming majority of them don't join hate groups, this or any other year.

but all things being equal, couldnt we presume that if hate group membership is on the rise, than so could just general attitude of casual racism? i doubt many people gave middle easterners a thought until 9/11. and where would the Minutemen guys on the mexican border be if this werent a current issue? just because there arent any hard numbers on non-fringe group hate doesnt mean its not on the rise.

[fluffy]

i also think these repeated references to musicians and athletes as minstrels are both condescending and deeply misinformed. (possibly even...nah, i won't say it.)

thank you. second that sentiment.


and i completely disagree that we don't have a functioning multicultural society. we absolutely do. that doesn't mean everyone loves everybody else.

so just for clarification, are you saying that instead of people choosing at what level to let multiculturalism into their lives, the multiculturalism came to them, whether they are ready or not? thats how im understanding it, anyway. sort of like living in any large city-you have different culture thrust upon you, ready or not.

[fluffy]

15 years ago, interracial sex was still a rare enough thing in the mass media that spike lee made a whole "controversial" movie about it.

actually ggjr's comment about grudging racism, black athletes and white girls made me think of one of spike's more recent films, He Got Game.

[fluffy]

But gypsy, extending the Civil Rights Act is not a matter of either "making progress" or "making everything peachy." It is a matter of maintaining the progress that has already been made.

but just as Gypsy also pointed out, these things take time. just because an amendment didnt pass this year doesnt mean it wont EVER happen.

[pixeljockey]

almost willing to let this pass without comment, except to agree that it's possible this year will not give us the equal of "fame." and to note that there were people in 1975 longing for the golden years of bing crosby and glenn miller.

yes, and fame isn't nearly one of bowie's strongest. i was jus' trollin' a li'l.
the diversity comment was a wee joke.
(there won't be an equal to philadelphia freedom either! c'mon!)

as much as i love hook loops, and i do, i miss me some strong melodies.

ok... back to racism. :D

[JohnT]

(i'll play. The interstitial talk about race in that thread was actually pretty good. Here's my counter post with some adjustment. Thanks, JFM. You should come over and check out our'n new house. I have beer and a place that delivers beer after you are too drunk to go around the corner and get it.)

Which is a reification of people of color being cast as minstrels and stepinfetchits? Let's look at the Top 10 private corporations in America:

* Cargill
* Koch Industries
* Mars
* PricewaterhouseCoopers
* Publix Super Markets
* Bechtel
* Ernst & Young
* C&S Wholesale Grocers
* SemGroup
* Meijer

Hrm. Now it is tough to call a company "white," but these are not exactly the product of Small Business Loans....
______

Oddly enough, those I put in bold came into existence prior to SBA loans. Your sample is biased towards longevity, not race. ;)

If it has anything to say about race, it says it about the years in which the companies were founded.

[JohnT]

Hmm...
This idea of top-ten-as-barometer-of-cultureal-change seems very truthy to me. It makes perfect sense if you think about it because it's reflective of the whole of youth culture.

Yes, youth culture. Face it blabbers, you're no longer part of it and neither are the creators of most all media outlets. That's why we miss seeing it. We've got a multi-cultural society growing up between our toes and and if you can't take off your wingtips you'll never know it.

My God, James, that was amazingly insightful.

And he's right. We Gen-X'ers were the ones who first grew up being told, taught that a multicultural society was good (being taught that by parents who grew up in a world where MC'ism wasn't even conceived of), but we didn't really grow up in a multicultural world - "It's coming", said the cover of Time magazine with the "New Face of America".

It's almost here, and it's the current kids nowadays live in that world that we were told was coming (unless they're purposely segregated by parents who didn't get the message). Not fully arrived, of course, but far more so than most of us were raised in.

[JohnT]

And if the black vote is split by pressures of economy versus progressive social action?

Hell, and here I was thinking that the entire point of "Leftist" economic theory was that economic pressures lead to progressive social action. Where did I go wrong? ;)

[metulj]

Hell, and here I was thinking that the entire point of "Leftist" economic theory was that economic pressures lead to progressive social action. Where did I go wrong? ;)

And you are 150 years behind 'leftist' economic theory in either direction....

[JohnT]

thank you. second that sentiment.

...

so just for clarification, are you saying that instead of people choosing at what level to let multiculturalism into their lives, the multiculturalism came to them, whether they are ready or not? thats how im understanding it, anyway. sort of like living in any large city-you have different culture thrust upon you, ready or not.

Agreed, and agreed. You can put blinders on, but your world will become increasingly smaller as the part that you don't want to see encroaches upon your field of vision.

[metulj]

Oddly enough, those I put in bold came into existence prior to SBA loans. Your sample is biased towards longevity, not race. ;)

If it has anything to say about race, it says it about the years in which the companies were founded.

That's Fortune's list. Not mine. The point wasn't about SBA loans. That's a throwaway.

[JohnT]

And you are 150 years behind 'leftist' economic theory in either direction....

Ahhh. Knew I'd get you. ;)

[jack frost]

I'm just amazed that Publix is on that list. Grocery stores notoriously barely make enough profit to stay open, and how many states besides Florida even have Publixes (Publi?)?

[JohnT]

That's Fortune's list. Not mine. The point wasn't about SBA loans. That's a throwaway.

No, you explicitly made a correlative statement between the US' largest privately held companies, race, and SBA loans. Let me repeat it, so you won't have to go back:


Hrm. Now it is tough to call a company "white," but these are not exactly the product of Small Business Loans....


I'm saying that it's not correlative, that 80% of the companies on your list came into being prior to SBA loans (1952). Since 1952 was prior to the Civil Rights Act or Brown, the list isn't correlative with advances in Civil Rights, either.

Given that, the more logical correlation to a company being on that list is not "racism" but longevity.

[bookeddy]

I'm just amazed that Publix is on that list. Grocery stores notoriously barely make enough profit to stay open, and how many states besides Florida even have Publixes (Publi?)?

I'm not going to google this or do any work, but I believe the successful "grocery" stores have increased their net margins from 1% (all the way)to 2% over the past 15 years.

Think about it.

... and you wonder why there is all that crap in the aisles!?

hint: what's 2% of 10 gazillion?

[dilettantedude]

Hmm...
This idea of top-ten-as-barometer-of-cultureal-change seems very truthy to me. It makes perfect sense if you think about it because it's reflective of the whole of youth culture.

Yes, youth culture. Face it blabbers, you're no longer part of it and neither are the creators of most all media outlets. That's why we miss seeing it. We've got a multi-cultural society growing up between our toes and and if you can't take off your wingtips you'll never know it.

James, thank you for your insight. I deliberately, for example, get a lot of my music from Hispanic Billboard (http://billboard.latino.msn.com/) hits, because it keeps me feeling young and in touch with where our society is moving. My favorite group is Los Trio O, thanks to the growing presence of multicultural websites. I'd never have discovered them hanging out with people my age - or even half my age for that matter.

In driving back roads to St. Augustine every month, I've been amazed at the growing presence of Hispanic AM radio stations where 10 years ago there was nothing but redneck and religious broadcasts. These roads all go through the middle of small town America, and on weekends most of them have Mercados crowded not only with Hispanics, but Anglos, visible from the main street. Not 10 years ago.

In a recent 10 day stay in Toronto, arguably the most multicultural city on the planet, the energy of the youthful immigrant population during the WC was so infectious that people seemed to forget any distinctions. One day we were all German. The next we were all Italian.

In skating all over the Hispanic sectors of San Antonio, I discoverd the most open, welcoming folks in the city - Hispanics. How many people over 30 do this? I recognized and actually could talk with them about a few of the groups I heard them playing. Pop culture is the only doorway on this world we have in many instances. It was my only entry into their society and friendship.

I think Jesse's right, popular culture provides a doorway into the kinds of social changes you don't see if you're an Old Fart (i.e., over 30).

Thanks, Jesse :)

[metulj]

Obtuse to a fault

You will notice that I used the word "not" in my crack about SBA loans. The largest black-owned private companies are nowhere to be seen compared to these companies. Also, correlation has a very specific meaning that you probably need to go back and clarify for yourself. K. Thx.

[dilettantedude]

I'm just amazed that Publix is on that list. Grocery stores notoriously barely make enough profit to stay open, and how many states besides Florida even have Publixes (Publi?)?

Actually, grocery stores are very profitable. It's not the profit margins that matter, it's their ability to generate cash, and it has little or nothing to do with profit margins. It's truly amazing. Why do you think Wal*&%$@!Mart got into groceries? They are more profitable than their other crap.

I hear the same thing about bookstores. Hell, they generate TONS of cash. Barnes & Noble and Borders are enormously profitable. You gotta go to software companies to find anything that generates that kind of cash.

[earlnemo]

but all things being equal, couldnt we presume that if hate group membership is on the rise, than so could just general attitude of casual racism? i doubt many people gave middle easterners a thought until 9/11. and where would the Minutemen guys on the mexican border be if this werent a current issue? just because there arent any hard numbers on non-fringe group hate doesnt mean its not on the rise.

Another possibility is that hate groups form as the individuals find themselves outnumbered in the larger society. When society no longer tolerates their racism, they seek like-minded freaks to commiserate with.

-edit- (opps) You're might be right.
From 6/12 thread Randall started about pathetic clan march. The Southern Poverty Law Center link is great. I'd forgotten about them. I'm going to send them $10.


well it would be cute i guess if their numbers werent growing;

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=627

[kag]

id say a top 10 list from say 1975 would feature a lot less diversity than it would in 2005. in fact, here are the top 10 songs of that year;


1. "Love Will Keep Us Together" - Captain & Tennille
2. "Rhinestone Cowboy" - Glen Campbell
3. "Fame" - David Bowie
4. "Shining Star" - Earth, Wind and Fire
5. "My Eyes Adored You" - Frankie Valli
6. "Thank God I'm A Country Boy" - John Denver
7. "Philadelphia Freedom" - Elton John
8. "One Of These Nights" - Eagles
9. "Pick Up The Pieces" - Average White Band
10. "At Seventeen" - Janis Ian

for the most part, thats a pretty white list.


Captain and Tenille and John Denver kick the asses of the people on that 2006 list ;-)

I love Nelly Furtado bit that Promiscuous Girl song sucks, plus I can't seem to explain to my 10 year old daughter who goes around singing it what it actually means, though I've tried.


Shakira is a taste I haven't acquired, though she seems like a very cool woman.

Gnarls Barkley is pretty happenin' in theory but I just don't actually ENJOY listening to it.

I love hiphop and dance music and nothing on that list JFM posted grabs me at all.

Call me a dinosaur, but give me some Daryll Dragon and Boogie Down Productions anyday... ;-)

[metulj]

Ahhh. Knew I'd get you. ;)

Name a major, contemporary 'leftist' economic theorist. Hernando De Soto?

[jack frost]

I'm not going to google this or do any work, but I believe the successful "grocery" stores have increased their net margins from 1% (all the way)to 2% over the past 15 years.

That is pretty impressive, considering that food, by and large, hasn't gotten much more expensive. In fact, most things that I can remember buying 15 years ago are just about the same price today.

[earlnemo]

Name a major, contemporary 'leftist' economic theorist. Hernando De Soto?




Sean Penn?

[JohnT]

You will notice that I used the word "not" in my crack about SBA loans. The largest black-owned private companies are nowhere to be seen compared to these companies. Also, correlation has a very specific meaning that you probably need to go back and clarify for yourself. K. Thx.

But you didn't list the "largest black companies" and compare them to the largest privately held companies. You listed the largest privately held companies, mentioned them in relation to the SBA, and... what, exactly? What was your point about the SBA if it was just a "throwaway line"? For somebody who likes to split hairs regarding the definition or uses of "correlative", one would think that "throwaway lines" are anything but. Especially since the "throwaway line" was your conclusion.

You didn't even mention black or minority businesses as a group... you just listed companies, 90% of which were founded prior to the Civil Rights Act, and said "See!?!? They were founded by white people! My point is made!"

Well... it wasn't. Not by the evidence you presented.

[JohnT]

However, I'm withdrawing from tonights Metulj and JohnT sideshow and going to bed. You win! :D

[dilettantedude]

Name a major, contemporary 'leftist' economic theorist. Hernando De Soto?

Not leftist, he actually just stuck to what his research demonstrated. Unlike most economists who mostly theorize. Facts are hardly political, but the consequences of ignoring them are.

[metulj]

However, I'm withdrawing from tonights Metulj and JohnT sideshow and going to bed. You win! :D

It's not about winning. That's the problem with conservatives...

[metulj]

Not leftist, he actually just stuck to what his research demonstrated.

Notoriously loved by neoliberals AND development folks. Strange. Strange. Strange. The Mystery of Capital is infuriating good stuff. You are starting to see his ideas about giving title to squatters in developing countries popping up all over the place. I have mixed feelings about this. In a sense, a squatter in Quito owns his or her hovel "more" than you and I own our homes.

[metulj]

Sean Penn?

Exactly my point. Thanks!

[bookeddy]

I think Jesse's right, popular culture provides a doorway into the kinds of social changes you don't see if you're an Old Fart (i.e., over 30).
Thanks, Jesse :)
Rbt,

Be forwarned: ramble alert has been raised to magenta!

I admire your enthusiasm, but everyone seems to have their focus on the local. Don't avoid the world view.... Go skate in the Congo, the Gaza strip, or Bagdad.

You know as well as anyone, one shouldn't confuse intelligence with a rising market valuation.

We are at a crux moment(defined in decades if not centuries) in history. Water, Energy, and commodity distribution are simmering issues on the front burner, Connectivity, market penetration of your playlist, and the point spread of the 2007 Super Bowl aren't going to be as important as they presently appear....

On the other hand, the reason those neighborhoods in San Antonio are so wonderful is that they still have some old-school sensibilities(add anecdotal evidence here).

I admire you and Jesse, your optimism.

An aside: The last time I was really hurt was in Austin Texas and I had cut the fuck out of myself while setting up at a book fair. I spirited my ass accross the river and off to the south-east where I sat in a "doc in a box" for two hours with blood running out of my homemade bandage.... The charge nurse came out, looked at my wound and decided(rightly) that I was going to live, and put my file in the queue. I sat there, being the only anglo in the waiting room, while perhaps the most pleasant crowd of people I had ever experienced gradually worked their way through the system. I eventually got my turn, received incredibly competent care and paid cash and left to go back to work. It was a cathartic event.

In other words, I have no idea where I stand....

peace.

[dilettantedude]

Notoriously loved by neoliberals AND development folks. Strange. Strange. Strange. The Mystery of Capital is infuriating good stuff. You are starting to see his ideas about giving title to squatters in developing countries popping up all over the place. I have mixed feelings about this. In a sense, a squatter in Quito owns his or her hovel "more" than you and I own our homes.

What's so fascinating to me about this is that Americans seem to have completely forgotten that we began the same way west of the Mississippi. Settlement was initially illegal. Everyone was squatters. Eventually Congress just gave up, gave them title, and adopted most of the laws they had created to keep society functional.

We've forgotten how we got here. Which means we are probably headed back where we came from.

Or something like that...

[metulj]

Eventually Congress just gave up, gave them title, and adopted most of the laws they had created to keep society functional.


Give DJ Waldie's 'Holy Land' a whirl if you haven't already.

Frank Popper (yeah, Mr. Buffalo Commons) is one of my profs and his basic take on US history in general is that it is a series of one cynical land grab after another and anyone who gets their hackles up about something like Kelo hasn't been paying attention. He has a 40 minute spiel that will leave you in stitches and wondering why this country even bothers with playing at civility.

[dilettantedude]

Give DJ Waldie's 'Holy Land' a whirl if you haven't already.

Frank Popper (yeah, Mr. Buffalo Commons) is one of my profs and his basic take on US history in general is that it is a series of one cynical land grab after another and anyone who gets their hackles up about something like Kelo hasn't been paying attention. He has a 40 minute spiel that will leave you in stitches and wondering why this country even bothers with playing at civility.

I've put it on my list - thanks! I'm a sucker for a totally unconnected and unstructured self-designed history course.

[dilettantedude]

In other words, I have no idea where I stand....

peace.

Back at ya...

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g55/dilettantedude/rasta_peace_symbol.gif

[gypsy]

I love hiphop and dance music and nothing on that list JFM posted grabs me at all.

i like several of the songs in the current top 10 ("promiscuous" is a solid B-grade timbaland jam, which is good enough for me), but the quality of the music is incidental to my point about who is making it.

(i agree to some degree about shakira; i like her fine, and i really like a few of her songs, but i often want to like her a little more than i actually do. her songs promise hooks that they don't completely deliver, at least half the time. she's smart and interesting, tho. and hot, if that needs saying.)

[gypsy]

Go skate in the Congo, the Gaza strip, or Bagdad.

right, well, those are all nightmares of tribalism at the moment. (see also what used to be yugoslavia, rwanda, etc.) that's the thing, all of this is happening at once. the twilight of the nation-states means increasing internationalism, hybridization and heterogeneity, AND it also means increasing retrenchment and falling back into tighter, more defensive, more homogeneous cultural units as a response to the internationalism, hybridization and heterogeneity. it's not going one way or the other, it's going both ways.

it's clear at this point that neither the neoliberal nor neoconservative models are in themselves sufficient to accomplish true globalization. which should have been obvious from the outset, because changes as structurally significant as that have to come up from below. they can be encouraged and nurtured from above or laterally, but only very carefully.

but the u.s., for all of our own retrenchments and political tribalism in recent years, is still the model for all that hybridization and heterogeneity. more now than ever before. which, again, was my original point. it's all around us. we're living it.

[earlnemo]

Sony Removes Dutch PSP Ads Seen As Racist
From Associated Press
July 12, 2006 6:30 PM EDT
TOKYO - Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. has removed billboards for the new white version of its PlayStation Portable video game player following complaints of racism, the company said. Sony also apologized.

The billboards, which went up in the first week of June only in the Netherlands, showed a white woman dressed in white threateningly grabbing the face of a frightened-looking black girl, with an attached catch copy saying, "PlayStation Portable White is coming."

The provocative image was one of several versions showing the two women in different poses, company spokesman Nanako Kato said Wednesday. They appeared exclusively in Amsterdam and several other major cities in that country.

Sony said the ads were intended only to emphasize the color contrast between the existing black PSP and the new ceramic white PSP.

"We only intended to make a sharp contrast between black and white, but never meant to discriminate against anyone," Kato said. "Even though the ad was perceived in an unexpected way, we'd like to apologize to the people who were offended by the ads."

Anybody seen this ad? I wonder...

[metulj]

right, well, those are all nightmares of tribalism at the moment. (see also what used to be yugoslavia, rwanda, etc.)

Jesse, I love you. Stop using that word: tribalism. It makes you sound like Robert Kaplan or, even, george will. It's pop anthropology.

[Lee G]

Jesse, I love you. Stop using that word: tribalism. It makes you sound like Robert Kaplan or, even, george will. It's pop anthropology.

Okay, but then what do you call Tutsi vs. Hutu?

[Lee G]

but all things being equal, couldnt we presume that if hate group membership is on the rise, than so could just general attitude of casual racism? i doubt many people gave middle easterners a thought until 9/11. and where would the Minutemen guys on the mexican border be if this werent a current issue? just because there arent any hard numbers on non-fringe group hate doesnt mean its not on the rise.

Could be, but considering my experience with the rising generation and the anecdotal evidence I see, I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Lee G]

Also, something that popped into my head last night, in re 1975 vs. 2006: SoundScan. Before its advent in (I think) the early '90s, the pop charts were whatever radio stations and record stores said they were. SoundScan brought in point-of-purchase hard data on what people actually bought, and surely I'm not the only one who remembers what a revelation that was: exponentially more country and hip-hop than anyone suspected. It didn't make sense, given conventional industry wisdom at the time (i.e. white rock and pop fans bought most of the CDs), but it was what people actually laid down cash to take home.

(I don't know how SS would affect singles charts, but I imagine the data they use to compile it is much firmer now than in the old days.)

[~Rumormonger~]

Okay, but then what do you call Tutsi vs. Hutu?

Cliquialism ;~)

[gordongekkojr]

Jesse, I love you. Stop using that word: tribalism. It makes you sound like Robert Kaplan or, even, george will. It's pop anthropology.

ain't nothin' wrong with George Will ;)

[fluffy]

I admire your enthusiasm, but everyone seems to have their focus on the local. Don't avoid the world view.... Go skate in the Congo, the Gaza strip, or Bagdad.

which bring up an aside -could globalization help to diffuse extremism in more unstable areas of the world? does exposure to western pop culture help to neutralize the ideals of people like jihadists? kinda hard to be taken seriously as a wannabe martyr when you are wearing a Nelly Furtado tshirt and drinking a Coke.

this is something you see from time to time when reporters interview a child on the streets of some middle eastern town. they might talk of wanting to do whatever is necessary for allah, but then they will talk about how much they move american pop music or this or that american athlete. is it because of their exposure to pop culture via globalization that might keep them from blowing up a bus someday? after all, why attack a country where so many of the things you love, however trite, come from?

same could be said for racism in the US-kinda hard to talk about wanting to return the US to an all-white nation when you cant turn on a TV for 5 seconds without seeing someone of a different ethncity to your own.

therefore is globalization and pop culture the key to shutting down extremism, in whatever form, throughout the world? as jess pointed out, sometimes pop culture can have a much more profound effect than political culture. and since we are talking about changing and molding the mindset of the youth of today(and tomorrow), and given how little interest most kids have in politics, wouldnt it stand to reason that pop culture therefore is the best chance for negating extremism, where it exists?

bush can talk democracy till hes blue in the face to the young people of iraq, but how many of them really give a shit? id say though that if some american pop star or athlete were to go over there and say the same thing, the kids there would be more open to listening, given the source.

after all, most of us as kids didnt trust old white guys even though we were young white guys; that anti-iauthority thing in effect. what chance does an old white guy(bush) have to convert young middle eastern guys? not much.

[metulj]

ain't nothin' wrong with George Will ;)

Bowtie.

[metulj]

Okay, but then what do you call Tutsi vs. Hutu?

A fabrication by the Belgian colonial administration.

[~Rumormonger~]

A fabrication by the Belgian colonial administration.

I thought it started when Floyd Hutu stole Randolph Tutsi's hog ;~)

[fluffy]

Bowtie.

its the reason i just cant take tucker carlson seriously.

[ernie]

This article (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/fashion/thursdaystyles/13women.html?8dpc?8dpc) in today's Times presents evidence of a disconnect between a message of popular culture and actual behavior. I suspect that there is a similar disconnect between the acceptance of multiethnicity of popular music and the acceptance of "other" ethnic groups in schools, workplaces, restaurants, clubs, etc.

[fluffy]

This article (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/fashion/thursdaystyles/13women.html?8dpc?8dpc) in today's Times presents evidence of a disconnect between a message of popular culture and actual behavior. I suspect that there is a similar disconnect between the acceptance of multiethnicity of popular music and the acceptance of "other" ethnic groups in schools, workplaces, restaurants, clubs, etc.


for the record, im a definite coffee slut.

[Lee G]

A fabrication by the Belgian colonial administration.

The Belgians did some heinous shit in Africa, but they weren't wielding machetes back in '94. However the differences are spawned or defined, ingrained differences, or perception of differences, frequently cause something to jump off.

[~Rumormonger~]

This article (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/fashion/thursdaystyles/13women.html?8dpc?8dpc) in today's Times presents evidence of a disconnect between a message of popular culture and actual behavior. I suspect that there is a similar disconnect between the acceptance of multiethnicity of popular music and the acceptance of "other" ethnic groups in schools, workplaces, restaurants, clubs, etc.

But cultural change doesn't happen in a straight line. It ebbs and flows but over the long haul mean advances. Hence, the first definition of slut has all but vanished.

Sure, you can find plenty of "disconnects" between popular culture and individual or even group behaivior but that doesn't mean that taken as a whole society isn't moving in the right direction.

And yes Ernie, we still have to keep pushing but there's nothing wrong with glancing back every now and then to see how far we've come...It let's us know that are, indeed, making a difference and thus inspires us to keep working towards the goal.

[metulj]

The Belgians did some heinous shit in Africa, but they weren't wielding machetes back in '94. However the differences are spawned or defined, ingrained differences, or perception of differences, frequently cause something to jump off.

No, they weren't but the system used to determine who was wielding and who ended up on the torso heap was based on an arbitrary assigment of labels by the colonial authorities that was not based on anything other than "this is an easy way to control this place." Could the Belgians have known the consequences? No. But this does get back to things like the Congress of Berlin and institutionalized global racism.

In order for a charge of "tribalism" to hold up in this case, the orders to hack up the others would have to have come down from a very clear chain of command based in traditional society. That was not the case.

Likewise for Yugoslavia, the orders to perpetrate atrocities were not pushed out through traditional social structures such as zupons and zadrugas. Not even close.

[SnM]

OK, we've clubbed the baby seal of pop music to a bloody pulp, ripped open its belly and read its entrails to divine-

Group A: -pop music is more diverse; cultures are blending; this is hopeful!

Group B: -so what?

But pop music isn't the be-all and end-all of pop culture. Can other aspects of pop- no not pop, let's call it mass culture or better yet, consumer culture, can other aspects of consumer culture -- TV, movies, literature, theatre, fashion, communications, food, sports, transportation, etc. -- be augured to give hope for the future? Anecdotal evidence says yes, but I would like to hear the cultural authorities expound. Seriously, I'm asking because I don't know and would like to hear the opinions and the evidence.


In the meantime, I couldn’t help myself, here’s a little mockery of cultural diversity. Please don’t take offense.

****
The Scene: Ornate board room, dark, filled with smoke from the cigar upon which the room's lone, shadowed occupant is thoughtfully puffing.

Suddenly, double doors slam open and sickly florescent light spills upon the cigar-puffer. His skin, where it is not splotched with unhealthy florid patches, such as those on his jowly cheeks and bulbous nose, is deathly pale. The face is like that of a well-fed frog, fleshly and bulging in all the wrong places. The thick lips continuously work the cigar from left side to right. The beady eyes flicker open and regard the intruder as a fly to be devoured. "What is it, Smith? Uhrr, Jones? Kunta Kinte? What the hell is your name, you little flea?

"Frommagahyde, sir," stammers the darker-skinned underling. He hesitates, quavering, unwilling to be the bearer of bad news. Then he plunges on, "Sir, PepsiCo is in danger of receiving less than a 100 percent rating on the Human Rights Campaign's Corporate Equality Index!" [ed. note: look it up.]

"What!" The Chairfrog of the Board roars. "Get me my Yesmen!"

"Yessir!" shrieks the underling and scurries out.

He is only gone for a second, then a tumultuous outcry is heard, like giant crickets with the hiccups all chirruping at once. "Yes-SIR! YES-sir! <yessir, yessir, yessir> yeSSir! <yessir, yessir, yessir> Yes-SIR! YES-sir!" A rabble of pale Armani-skinned toadies burst into the boardroom. "YESSIR!"

"Frankenhyde informs me that PepsiCo's Corporate Equality Index is in danger of being less than 100 percent this year!"

Armani rabble: "YESSIR!"

Chairfrog: "Don't give me 'yessir'! Give me solutions!"

Armani rabble: "YESSIR!"

In an amazing display of oral dexterity, the Chairfrog’s tongue darts out of its mouth, lashes around one of the Armanis, and slurps it whole down its gullet, all the while clenching its cigar in the corner of its lips. “I said ‘SOLUTIONS,’ you deliciously meaty insects!” it croaks.

There is a moment of small chirruping among the Armani, then a lone, hesitant voice speaks: “Yessir, Mr. Chairfrog, sir, there is a new meme going around the Web, sir, ‘functioning multicultural society,’ sir. Maybe we could do something with that, begging your pardon, sir?”

“Like what?”

“Uhhhhh, I- I- I d-d-don’t know, si-eEEEEEEEK!” The Chairfrog’s limber tongue drags the speaker into its powerful jaws.

“The next bug that chirps better have an answer I like, or you’re all split open alive while I suck out your gizzards,” says the Chairfrog.

There is much nervous rubbing of knees among the Armani. Some suits are soiled.

“I’m WAITING!”

Another lonely voice speaks: “Yr-ur-yurg-Yes, yes, sir, sir? Sir, maybe we could, maybe we could revive, errr, we could revive, ‘We Are the World’ sir?” The speaker ducks and dives screaming, “PLEASE DON’T EAT ME, MR. CHAIRFROG!”

The giant frog hums pleasantly to itself for a moment, then rumbles, “Gentleman, I’ve just had a brilliant idea.”

Armani rabble: "YESSIR!"

Chairfrog: “We’ll revive-“

Armani-suited rabble: "YESSIR!"

The Chairfrog gobbles down another Armani. “Damn it, how many times have I told you not to interrupt me!”

Armani rabble: "YESSIR!"

“GRRRR! Where was I? Yeah, we’ll revive ‘I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing’!”

Armani rabble: "YESSIR! Brilliant idea, sir! Fantastic! SEXY!" Such nattering continues for several minutes, with the Chairfrog beaming at his toadies, awash in the joy of his own cleverness. Then he speaks again: “Who’ll we get to record it?”

Armani rabble: "YESSIR! Uhhh, whoever’s at the top of the charts?"

“Exactamundo, my little Armani dolls. I may not eat anymore of you after all. We’ll have everybody that’s big singing our song! If that doesn’t signify our 100 percent corporate equality, I don’t know what will.”

Armani rabble: "YESSIR!”

Chairfrog: “STOP SAYING THAT!”

Armani rabble: "YEsss-uh-urh-uh…”

“Bring me the charts!” The Chairfrog calls, and the charts are brought. “Hmmm, Christina Aguilera, good, good, um, Shakira, ah, Nelly Furtado, excellent, Gnarls Barkley, um-hm, Sean Paul, ah, ok. Good mix of promiscuous unlying hips and grabbable crotches. Excellent. But not enough.”

Armani rabble: “Sir?”

“We need even MORE diversity! Get me an Israeli and a Palestinian, ASOP! Must have luscious booties! We’ll put ‘em booty by booty and have one sing ‘perfect’ and the other ‘harmony.’

"YESSIR!”

Get me an Irish Catholic and an Irish Protestant! Must have enormous units! They don’t have to sing, just slur drunkenly and scratch themselves!”

"YESSIR!”

“Who owns the rights to Tiny Tim’s genes? I want his clone playing accompaniment on the ukulele. And make sure he’s even greener than I remember!”

"YESSIR!”

“One more example, I need one more, for the absolute last word in diversity, I need, I need- I’VE GOT IT! Get me two Spanish GREAT APES! Spain’s working on giving them civil rights! [ed. note: look it up] They can be mating in the background wearing shirts that say ‘Apes are only human’! Perfect!”

"YESSIR!”

Much chirrupy fawning goes on among the Armani until again, one Armani chirps up:

“Errr, yessir, sir? That song, it’s not ours, it's Coke's sir. We're PepsiCoooOOOHHHHHHHHHH!”

Down the gullet he goes.

“FOOL! I knew that! Did any of you others think I didn’t know that?”

“Yess- NO, OH NO SIR, nossir, nossir, nossir!”

“RIGHT. OK then. What we’ll do is we’ll form a buncha dummy holding company and buy shares of Coca-Cola. And keep buying and keep buying. We'll get stooges on their board, plants in all their offices. We'll absorb their corporate culture, we'll learn all their company functions, then we'll diversify our holdings on their ass. Their market share will wither and WE'll take them over from within! THEN it will be OUR song. I'm a genius! Nothing say diversity like a corporate takeover! Coke’s gonna CHOKE when they figure it out!”

Again, a single Armani speaks: "Errr, yessir, sir, but, er, what about our corporate equality rating right now? It will take years..."

"Fah! I'm being brilliant, don't bother me when I'm being brilliant! Ahhh. We'll buy the rights to the song anyway! We'll buy it through a third-party holder and then buy it again from them! Coke'll never be the wiser and we'll have our symbol of 100 percent corporate equality rating and then we'll eat them alive! Brilliant! Brilliant, I am! And you-"

Armani rabble: "YESSIR!"

"You're appetizers! Sllllluuuuuurrrrrrrp!"

[metulj]

This article (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/13/fashion/thursdaystyles/13women.html?8dpc?8dpc) in today's Times presents evidence of a disconnect between a message of popular culture and actual behavior. I suspect that there is a similar disconnect between the acceptance of multiethnicity of popular music and the acceptance of "other" ethnic groups in schools, workplaces, restaurants, clubs, etc.

I had a student say to me yesterday after class, "Y'know, we could be niggers." I spent the train ride home wondering what the fuck that meant. When I got the Times off the porch this morning and saw this article I knew I had to save it for later. I think I will just read it now.

[gypsy]

Jesse, I love you. Stop using that word: tribalism. It makes you sound like Robert Kaplan or, even, george will. It's pop anthropology.

i know you have some kind of academic problem with the word, but i'm using it in its (perfectly acceptable) generic sense to refer to group identification and behavior. "a division, class or group of people, varying ethnologically according to the circumstances from which their separation or distinction is supposed to originate." doesn't have anything to do with First World vs. Third World, or any such thing. soccer fans can be tribal. so can macintosh users.

[gypsy]

the "slut" article is interesting, but not surprising. it's a variation on the same discussion around "nigger." and similarly, of course the word has not been completely defused. as the article notes, it's rooted in long and deeply held ideas about women and sexuality. but it has been somewhat defused, as those ideas have started to change, so it's no surprise that some girls and women would play around with redefining it. again, i think it's a mistake to say that, because situation X still persists to some significant degree, it is therefore not changing. change takes a while, incrementally, generation by generation. none of us are going to see any of these things -- racism, sexism, religious bigotry -- disappear in our lifetimes. you kind of have to accept that in order to see and appreciate the changes that are happening.

[gypsy]

and snm, your thing is funny. but i'm not sure how evil corporations feeling the need to be seen publicly embracing diversity is exactly a bad thing. the video for the shakira song, for example, is a product of i don't know how many thousands of dollars of corporate money, all spent with the intent of making more money, but along the way it happens to depict a light-skinned woman with blond hair and a dark-skinned man with dreadlocks singing salaciously about each other's bodies and dancing in ways that "suggestive" doesn't begin to describe. that would not have been on tv 30 years ago. or even 20 years ago. or if it had, that would have been the story: interracial sex! here, it's not even remarked on. it's just shakira and wyclef singing a pop song. if any of the corporations involved had thought this was going to be a problem, they could have -- and probably would have -- stopped it. but i kind of doubt it even came up. that's a change.

as for other forms of pop culture, yeah, the same things are going on, to different degrees (think of depictions of gays and lesbians in movies and on tv, for example). more on that later.

[metulj]

i know you have some kind of academic problem with the word, but i'm using it in its (perfectly acceptable) generic sense to refer to group identification and behavior. "a division, class or group of people, varying ethnologically according to the circumstances from which their separation or distinction is supposed to originate." doesn't have anything to do with First World vs. Third World, or any such thing. soccer fans can be tribal. so can macintosh users.

ethnologically is the keyword. Drawing parallels between organized gangs (Scottish soccer hooligans) and tribes (e.g. The Tiv of Nigeria) is not accurate. There are tribal societies and then there is the semiotics of how the word 'tribal' is used. We can, somewhat authoritatively, speak about the characteristics of the Tiv, but why would we transfer the term 'tribal' to soccer hooligans? I am not being politically correct here; I want to be sure that we are not calling cats, dogs and vice-versa and giving people the impression that 'tribal' has some inherent meaning beyond 'division, class or group' that is created by the group described as 'tribal.' Often, that is not the case. When my mom hears the word 'tribal' a very specific image pops into her head.

[gypsy]

right, but ethnology itself has a pretty broad definition. you could certainly talk about the ethnology of soccer fans. (i bet some academic has done so.) i think tribalism is a useful way to talk about group identification, espeically as it pertains to identification against some other group (even if the other group is some kind of straw-man conceit cooked up to generate group cohesion).

[SnM]

gypsy wrote:

i'm not sure how evil corporations feeling the need to be seen publicly embracing diversity is exactly a bad thing.

****

It's neither good nor bad. It's just a corporation pursuing the profit margin wherever it takes it, same as they all do, same as they always do. If something else begins to drive the profit margin, then you may wonder whether corporations doing what they do is a good thing or a bad thing.

Look, I understand what you're saying, I think I've understood each time you've iterated it. You see expressions of all kinds of different elements in the cultural mix showing multiform and diverse facets, and your spirit is buoyed by this phenomena. The pop culture is part driver, but more a reflection of changes in attitudes and tastes going on under the surface and even under the consciousness of society.

This multicultural diversity is permeating throughout society and through the many individual consciousnesses within society, and even those resistant to change must succumb from simple repeated exposure as the society forms itself more and more around less and less noticable expanded cultural norms, not even intentionally or driven so, but through evolution, osmosis and the happy chance of the development of technology that has so vastly shrunk the globe.

Those few who consciously resist these changes will just die out in their slowly dwindling conclaves, fading into irrelevancy with each passing generation. Politics and political institutions, financial institutes, other institutions with their calcified worldviews are least open to these cultural currents, likely to be most resistant to them, and probably will reflect such changes least and last.

So despite the current seeming intractability of the prominent established institutions of order, those most visible outcroppings of our historical ground as it were, from looking at the groundwater of pop culture percolating up beneath those rocky promontories you feel optimism, even a sense of certainty, that the cultural landscape must ultimately change for the better.

Sure, I get it. Hope it works out that way.

[gypsy]

not "for the better" necessarily, because that's all a matter of perspective. (there are a lot of things about pluralism that appeal to me, but they all come with their own costs.) just that it is changing.

[ernie]

I had a student say to me yesterday after class, "Y'know, we could be niggers." I spent the train ride home wondering what the fuck that meant. When I got the Times off the porch this morning and saw this article I knew I had to save it for later. I think I will just read it now.

Reminds me of that wise (if haunted) genius Lenny Bruce, who once said, "If President Kennedy is serious about civil rights, he needs to go on TV and announce, 'I'm a nigger. You're a nigger. We're all niggers. Nigger, nigger, nigger.'"

Your student may have been trying to make the same point that Bruce was trying to make.

[gypsy]

also, the changes toward pluralism are not going to be bloodless or easy, on the global level. they will be accompanied by a huge amount of sectarian bloodshed, as they already have been. this discussion -- and this billboard chart -- reflect mostly what's going on in the united states, which has more practice and experience with pluralism than almost any other country in the world. i do find what's happening here hopeful, for the most part, but that doesn't translate into feeling particularly hopeful about the short-term prospects for, say, the Middle East or central Africa.

[ernie]

not "for the better" necessarily, because that's all a matter of perspective. (there are a lot of things about pluralism that appeal to me, but they all come with their own costs.) just that it is changing.

But your first post in this thread said you began this discusssion in another thread because you were "trying to cheer up bookeddy, who suggested that things weren't getting 'better.'"

[fluffy]

Reminds me of that wise (if haunted) genius Lenny Bruce, who once said, "If President Kennedy is serious about civil rights, he needs to go on TV and announce, 'I'm a nigger. You're a nigger. We're all niggers. Nigger, nigger, nigger.'"



speaking of which, i just got done watching this, and id suggest Netflixing it;


http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/n_word/

[gypsy]

specifically in the sense that "better" means more pluralistic, yes. (he was suggesting that things might be going the opposite direction.) i'm a pluralist, so i naturally think pluralism is, on balance, a good thing. but there are always things lost along the way (cultural traditions that erode until they become museum-piece rituals, even whole languages that fade over generations, etc).

[~Rumormonger~]

So, did somebody fill your glass half full with pluralism or did some bastard spill your glass of pluralism, leaving it half empty?

[dilettantedude]

In order for a charge of "tribalism" to hold up in this case, the orders to hack up the others would have to have come down from a very clear chain of command based in traditional society. That was not the case.


A lot of pretty well-respected authorities use the term tribalism frequently. Thomas Sowell and Dinesh D'Souza come immediately to mind. They use it in order to distinguish some kinds of exclusionary behavior from racism. Tribalism is the normal human grouping together against outsiders. You know, like suburban gated communities. (just poking around to have some fun, heh, heh :) ) In extreme forms it can even lead to mass slaughter, but it isn't necessarily racism. Religious wars are a good example. Slavery in ancient times was also not typically the result of racism, but of tribalism.

It's in disctinction to racism, which is based on the notion that another people with identifiable physical differences is physically, morally and mentally inferior because of them. You know, like UT basketball players or liberals.

[Headless Geisha]

As soon as I saw the Promiscuous video, I noticed that when Nelly Furtado is dancing around and grinding on the guy she is seemingly into, it is most certainly NOT Timbaland. Its a white guy. It was one of the first things I noticed.

[edens]

So, did somebody fill your glass half full with pluralism or did some bastard spill your glass of pluralism, leaving it half empty?

Hey, you got pluralism in my multiculturalism!

Oh yeah, well your multiculturalism is in my pluralism!

[ernie]

Tribalism is the normal human grouping together against outsiders. You know, like suburban gated communities. (just poking around to have some fun, heh, heh :) )

I live in Norris, which is essentially a gated community that was built in the 1930's. I used to be very active in that community, until we moved to downtown Knoxville for a couple of years. As a result of that move, I left my old tribe and joined what might best be described as the Fugowi tribe. Now we are back in Norris (for personal/family reasons I will not go into here), but I don't like my old tribe anymore. I like the Fugowi. This leads to stress, which, until we are able to move back downtown, is best ameliorated by drinking Al's stout every Wednesday night at the traditional tribal meeting. On other nights, I go back to Norris, sit in my chair, drink wine, and ask, "Where the Fugowi?"

[gypsy]

As soon as I saw the Promiscuous video, I noticed that when Nelly Furtado is dancing around and grinding on the guy she is seemingly into, it is most certainly NOT Timbaland. Its a white guy. It was one of the first things I noticed.

ha, i hadn't even watched the video. true enough. but it's definitely timbo on the track. the shakira one tho, mmmm. i could watch her dance for a long, long time.

[gypsy]

So, did somebody fill your glass half full with pluralism or did some bastard spill your glass of pluralism, leaving it half empty?

i'm a pluralist. i have many glasses. rose-colored ones.

and i'm about ready for another round.

[Pan]

non sequitur: how many of the top 10 contenders for the '08 presidency for each party are Rich White Males?

[Headless Geisha]

Well Timbaland is IN the video. He's just not the guy she's macking on. I only noticed because I thought it was odd. I mean, the people who collaborate are ALWAYS the ones dancing and grinding on each other. Its what they do.

[Georgia]

the shakira one tho, mmmm. i could watch her dance for a long, long time.

Really? It's ok but probably not my favorite. What was the video that had her snaking along the table? That one was pretty hot.
I do like the beaded back in the current video. I was planning to adhere stones to my next round of back henna but maybe not after all of this...hate to be a copycat.

[Georgia]

Well Timbaland is IN the video. He's just not the guy she's macking on. I only noticed because I thought it was odd. I mean, the people who collaborate are ALWAYS the ones dancing and grinding on each other. Its what they do.

Yeah- I wondered about that too. Plus, I'm still amazed it's Nelly Furtado that song sounds like the Pussycat Dolls to me.

[jack frost]

I like the older, non-English-singing Shakira music the best.

And if "tolerance" means I have to hear about the singer for My Chemical Romance making out with his brother, then man, that sword has got more than one edge, tell you what.