theoretical question-- are women getting MEANER?

[Deanna's Daydreamer]

This is not a 'dog women' thread at all.

But I've been tooling around with a question I figure I will toss out for any to discuss. Voice what ya think.

Is it a strong possibility that women in American society today are becoming meaner? Let's phrase it in several different ways.

And I'm not saying they are, nor am I saying they should be, nor am I saying they are not, nor am I saying that if they are then it's a good thing. It's basically a simple question. Is your average woman in America today... meaner than the average woman was 10 years ago, or 20 years ago.

And I'm tossing this out there realizing that people might say women AND men are BOTH meaner than they were 20 years ago. That people are more rude in America than they used to be.

And I also don't know if THAT is true.

I'm not trying to stir up some shit, or make myself look crazy by asking this, but sometimes I swear I really DO think that your average modern American woman is a little meaner today than they were back when I was younger-- back in the 1980s. Perhaps it's the rise of divorce and child support issues, perhaps it is a media influence of some kind, perhaps it is just a more stressfull time to be ALIVE.... in America.

So I am just tossing this thing out there for whoever will voice an opinion on it. But let me ask you this. Do any of you guys ever call one of your really old friends, perhaps he lives in another town and you don't get together all that much anymore, and when you talk to the guy's wife she is just flat out mean to his friends? Have any of you guys ever 'felt' that before-- that when you talk with a married woman... who is married to one of your friends... that she is basically "hi and bye" on the phone?

Here's another toss on the fire. And don't get me wrong. I'm not 'blaming women' in this post. God knows there are plenty of *sshole men, losers, potheads, drunks, momma's boys, 10 thousand dollar millionaires, show off, know it all, self obsessed, sex obsessed men out there. I realise that there are serial killers, pornographers, cheaters, guys who beat their wives, and double life leading lying bastard men. So this is not a one sided question I am asking.

I am basically asking if it is a possibility that more and more women in America are acting bitchy for no particular reason, are simply meaner to other people than they used to be, or if society has somehow sponsored this thru female TV characters... what..EVER. You get what I am asking...right? I am wondering if... for whatever reason... more women in America today... are simply MEANER than they used to be 20 years ago.

Your opinion. Right now. LAUNCH

and Challenger go with throttle up.

[gypsy]

http://mediamatters.org/static/images/tv_clips/ann-coulter.jpg

[earlnemo]

http://mediamatters.org/static/images/tv_clips/ann-coulter.jpg

Ok. That answers his question about society in general, but what about Women?

[Hank IV]

Ann, why the long face? (stolen from Wombats excellent audio clip)

[F-Stop]

http://mediamatters.org/static/images/tv_clips/ann-coulter.jpg

That's no woman. ITS A CYBORG

[Georgia]

This month's Cosmo has an article titled- Are you ever a bitch? And the tagline suggests that guys love it.

If you are thinking that women in their 30's-40's are showing bitchy tendencies I'd need to mention that I think selfconfidence can be misunderstood as bitchiness and really, it's more knowing and saying what we want out of life.
But, since you think it's prevalent in younger women; I don't really know what to say about it.
In a general statement, I can say that folks are not as nice to be around in say, a retail situation. Kids learn what they see and push to see what they can get away with...

[fluffy]

im pretty sure ann wears size 12 grey boots.

[Quince]

This month's Cosmo has an article titled- Are you ever a bitch?

Oh, well. At least they used a question mark.

[Georgia]

Oh, well. At least they used a question mark.


I found my copy- I enjoy picking up a racy magazines* in the airport-

the grab line on the cover is- Are you ever a bitch? but the true title to the article is Why men can't resist a bitch.
They give tips on how to become a bit bitchier.

"Sometimes it's easier for a guy to deal with a bitch than with a woman who waffles or is too emotional."



* Racy magazines are what my dear older friend Mary called them. She was in her 80's and lived in the townhouse apartment across from me (my first place after college.). I'd offer her my recycled Glamour, Cosmo...whatever my sister had shared. She feigned concern over the content of the "racy magazines" but, then she'd call over to see if I had any old magazines and specifically ask for the "racy" ones.

[binR Bishop]

Oh, crap. Women in general are more assertive and independent that they used to be. And less tolerant of dips like you.

Good for us, I say.

See how "mean" I am before my morning coffee.

[Ellipsis]

Well, I think they have more pressure on them to make their own way in the world and other ways to get what they want than by enticing and obliging, so yes, probably they are, but I might instead use the word assertive.

[jeffx]

they're the same amount of mean they always were. they just don't have to hide it as much anymore.

i think that's a good thing.

[Ellipsis]

This month's Cosmo has an article titled- Are you ever a bitch? And the tagline suggests that guys love it.

But I'm not into bitchy women. Despite my evidently limited appeal to the opposite sex, I'm not willing to put up with someone who's mad all the time. Far better to be with someone who makes you feel good.

(Haven't read the article, tho.)

[fluffy]

and emo is making boys wussier! is there no end to this injustice?!?!!?

[Georgia]

Far better to be with someone who makes you feel good.




Most definitely!

[Gray]

and emo is making boys wussier! is there no end to this injustice?!?!!?

Indeed, like lambs to the slaughter, or, rather, lemmings diving over the edge of an ice floe.

If it's true (because clearly everything written in Cosmo about men is gospel) that men like/prefer bitchy women, the only explanation for this phenomenon is that with a bitch, WYSIWYG.

[Sewell]

The alleged sensitivity of emo is just a schtick. Talk about wolves in sheep's clothing, or should I say dudes in women's jeans. I know I'm not telling you anything you didn't know a long time ago, Fluff.

BTW, I wear women's jeans too. And I'm a goddamned WHORE.

[fluffy]

BTW, I wear women's jeans too. And I'm a goddamned WHORE.


not telling me anything i dont already know.

[kag]

Women are less willing to fake being "nice" just to appease people than at any time in recorded western cultural history, so for men who can't handle starightforward, honest, assertive communication, they might seem "mean."

However, Americans are amazingly impolite these days (witness the decline of the thank you note) and crude, bizarre, Springer-esque public behavior is on the rise, so in that way, PEOPLE in general are meaner.

[fluffy]

Women are less willing to fake being "nice" just to appease people than at any time in recorded western cultural history, so for men who can't handle starightforward, honest, assertive communication, they might seem "mean."


yeah, JJJ has never been one to understand assertive women. must be why he likes underage tennis players.


However, Americans are amazingly impolite these days (witness the decline of the thank you note) and crude, bizarre, Springer-esque public behavior is on the rise, so in that way, PEOPLE in general are meaner.

most of the rest of the world would agree with you there. speaking of which, has anyone read the latest issue of Time about the supposed end of Cowboy Politics?

[Deanna's Daydreamer]

I'm not trying to dog out women in asking this question of people, and surprisingly I haven't got any decent answers from here, and there are some highly educated and smart people on this board.

Suppose the premise of the argument is TRUE-- women today are meaner than they were 20 or 30 years ago. The next question is... WHY? Is it because there is more divorce, and more problems for divorced women? Is it because the media tries to make bitchy women look COOL on your TV set, and therefore subconsciously influences women to act like you see the female characters on soap operas act? Is it because more males in America are watching pornography and then objectifying women more, and appreciating them less? Is it because the times are mroe stressful today than they used to be, and stressed out mothers are pushed to the limits?

Is it just one half of a bigger deal... in that the MEN in society are meaner as well?

BNR, I don't KNOW. That is why I AKSED the question to the posters of this joint. To see if they felt the premise is true.

But, as you might imagine, the Daydreamer WILL eventually pose an opinion, and I honestly think your typical American woman of today... right NOW... in 2006... certainly IS meaner. They can be mean, and sometimes ARE... both to people who know them and complete strangers. The 'southern hospitality' thing is fading... and fading fast.

Perhaps my observation is overly influenced by the CITY that I live in, and if so? I acknowledge that.

But I think there's something to what I am saying. And the Cosmo article is DEAD wrong. I don't think any man wants a 'bitch' for a girlfriend. And I can tell you from a guy's perspective-- it's plenty damn hard to be a MAN in this nation. Anytime ya'll wanna step outta those heels and put some workboots on you can walk in a man's shoes and find out real quick I am right.

I asked 85 year old Miss Ilene Silverman, one of my neighbors, this question, and she said absolutely it is TRUE. She said the whole society of us are 'mean, petty, untrusting, selfish, rude, self obsessed, jealous, envious, mad' all the time, and [my interpretation] otherwise trucked up.

She said everyone wants to do as they 'damn well please.' Eighty five year old jewish lady actually cussed about it.

I honestly don't think that men and women are getting along as well as they used do, and I mean in general terms, in love and finances, in friendship and marriage, even in the workplace.

I don't know what is happening, but America is becoming less personal, more distanced. Send me a fax on that. I'll call you back. Emails and beepers and post it notes. Call ya later. It's like there are mroe and mroe people who are interested in a hundred contacts, but each 'contact' whether it be friend, acquantaince or whatver... is a plastic friend, with loyalties a mile wide and a half inch deep. Instead of urban yuppie people having 3 true friends, everyone is so damn 'busy' that what they really have is a cell phone FULL of people they don't even know very well.

And I don't think it's a mistake on my part to point it out, and I don't think it's a Memphis thing, or a southern phenomenon. I think it's technology changing our lives, but something else is in the mix. Perhaps a subconscious fear of the war escalating, of America becoming a very dangerous place to live, of 'falling thru the cracks' into poverty. Call it what you want.

And hit me with some ideas.

[Georgia]

Well, I don't know many people- male or female who would want to be around a disagreeable person much less in a relationship with that person.

I just thought that the Cosmo article was timely in regard to your question.

I do think that humans, in general, are less concerned with their fellow humans.

However, while in SC last month, I did feel that folks were nicer to be around and did seem to have a general concern for others. That may strictly be my longing to get back south-and nothing more.

I've had only one "Northern experience" as JJJ might call it since we've moved up here. I had gone down to pick up a piece of furniture from a second hand store in a small town. When I got there, the owner had decided to close early and had put the piece outside (we had already paid for it). I pulled up in the pickup truck took one look at the furniture and tried to figure out how I was going to hoist it into the truck bed.
Two guys pulled up at the shop and got out... I said hello to them...they circled the store realized it wasn't open...passed me trying to get the truck loaded and got in their car and left.
I will admit...my first thought was "that wouldn't have happened down south"....at that point, I got 'mean' and backed truck as close as I could...wedged that set of shelves under my sandal and rocked it until I got the edge in the corner of the truckbed.
It was blazing hot and I was past the 'glistening' stage in my sundress but I was pissed enough that I wasn't driving the hour home without it. I somehow managed to force that piece into truck and drove it home. It took two guys to get it out.

Maybe we are getting meaner...if so, I think it's out of a need for survival.

[rikki]

Perhaps it seems LIKE a trend in society at large, but it's all YOU, baby. Women were WAY meaner 20 years ago. In the 1980s. And MUCH closer to the MEDIAN too, if you know...what...I...mean.

[Quince]

I don't think it's a Memphis thing

Then you underestimate the sociocultural torque of Danny Thomas.

[DnB]

Then you underestimate the sociocultural torque of Danny Thomas.
Now you're just being mean. ;)

[MaryvilleRockWriter]

She said the whole society of us are 'mean, petty, untrusting, selfish, rude, self obsessed, jealous, envious, mad' all the time, and [my interpretation] otherwise trucked up. She said everyone wants to do as they 'damn well please.' Eighty five year old jewish lady actually cussed about it
...
I don't know what is happening, but America is becoming less personal, more distanced. Send me a fax on that. I'll call you back. Emails and beepers and post it notes. Call ya later. It's like there are mroe and mroe people who are interested in a hundred contacts, but each 'contact' whether it be friend, acquantaince or whatver... is a plastic friend, with loyalties a mile wide and a half inch deep. Instead of urban yuppie people having 3 true friends, everyone is so damn 'busy' that what they really have is a cell phone FULL of people they don't even know very well.

I think you have a point, JJJ. Technology has closed the gap of physical distance; whereas it used to be a big deal to make a long-distance telephone call across the country or get a letter in the mail from a friend a couple of towns away, we take for granted that free long distance and e-mail and text messages and everything else makes all of that no big deal. I think people used to treasure those friendships more, because communication was few and far between ... now, it's no big deal for me to talk to close friends who live thousands of miles away on a weekly basis, and as a result, they don't seem AS close. Am I making sense here? I don't think we're becoming meaner as a society; just more insulated. Technology grants us a faux closeness that we've used to replace physical and emotional intimacy. We've become so bombarded by technological overload that we've turned inward; our lives are so hectic and busy that we're more self-centered and caught up in our own drama and stress and worry; we have less time to devote to caring for other people.

But every once in a while, something happens that brings out the best in us, and it gives me hope for the human race (or at least the emotional capacity for kindness in us humans). It can be something huge, like Sept. 11 or Katrina, when everybody seems moved and swept up in compassion and wants to do something. Or it can be something on a much smaller level, like a couple of years ago when we took a trip to Gulf Shores. On the interstate, a few hundred miles north of Mobile, I saw a van leave the other side of the interstate and go tumbling end-over-end across the median and into our lane. No other cars were hit, but that van was full of people, and it was FUBARed.

I skidded to a stop on the shoulder, as did a dozen other cars, and before I knew it, I was running toward the scene of this accident that had just happened in front of me. It's funny the little things you remember - I recall the sound of my sandals slapping against the pavement while I ran - and suddenly this van full of injured people was swarmed by 15 or 20 of us trying to help, driven to help by the basic human emotion of compassion. We brought water, stopped bleeding, offered words of comfort, extricated those trapped and relayed info to 911 ... looking back, it was a powerful example of compassion in action.

Or maybe it was just because the fucking interstate was blocked and none of us could continue traveling south.

I'd like to think it's the former, though.