Downtown Liquor Store Mess

[Shinola]

I've not seen it yet, but WBIR is previewing a story that claims there are some folks trying to block a downtown liquor store. I love it. There's no shortage of people to bitch about things in this town.

But perhaps I'm jumping the gun and there's actually a valid reason.


Story at 11.

[Crowe]

See: http://www.metropulse.com/articles/2006/16_27/secret_history.shtml

"Knoxville has never been able to attain escape velocity from its own history, and the downtown liquor-store problem is one of the more annoying manifestations of that phenomenon.
[...]
"Now young entrepreneurs with a proven commitment to downtown have the energy and capital to open a package store, but, so far, the city won’t allow them to. A 1962 city code prohibits package stores within 500 feet of 'any church, school, park, recreational facility, hospital, mortuary, or similar public place....' The problem is that downtown’s lousy with public places. The only thing wrong with that fact is that there’s hardly a spot downtown where package stores are legal.

[binR Bishop]

There was a public meeting on this tonight - to discuss what the current laws are, and I presume, if they need to be changed to accomodate a liquor store downtown.

I wanted to go but had a conflict. Will be interesting to hear how it went.

[Shinola]

Thanks! I haven't read my Metro Pulse this week yet, obviously.

[gypsy]

there used to be a liquor store on market square. was that grandfathered in or something?

[Crowe]

Do you remember the year(s) it was open? I've only been here since '00.

[market square district]

betcha Dixie Belle could give you the full scoop

[gypsy]

it closed while i was there (i mean there in knoxville, not there at the liquor store)(although i did snag a bottle of tanqueray in their going-out-of-business sale). probably around '99 or so. but yeah, dixie would know.

[Hildegard]

Do you remember the year(s) it was open? I've only been here since '00.

Gus Peroulas had a liquor store in the site now occupied by Vagabondia (chic and sophisticated ladies' clothier - with the city's most beautiful and hip, affordable jewelry - in the yellow building across from Pres Pub) for about a thousand years. It was grandfathered in. Gus died a few years ago, and so did his license.

[market square district]

The Peroulas Fam still owns 37 Market Sq. Gus's is currently run by Charlie Jetter.

But, 27 Market Sq has a different story

http://www.metropulse.com/dir_zine/dir_2000/1001/t_secret.html
* December saw a significant but unheralded passing, the closing of Harry Caracostis's Mall Package Store on Market Square. Harry claimed, on strong evidence, that his store was the oldest package store in Knoxville. It had been there for almost 40 years, opening almost immediately after Knoxville lifted its 54-year ban on liquor stores.

It wasn't for lack of business that he closed, as anyone who has spent a half-hour listening to Harry's stories knows. He always had a steady stream of customers of all walks of life, hundreds of whom knew him by name. Harry's license was up, and the Greek World War II veteran just figured it was time to retire. Harry has been suffering from cancer for more than a year, but that fact has never had much effect on his smile.

It was the last package store downtown. It was also the end of an unbroken Greek retail presence on Market Square that goes back nearly a century.

[Sewell]

I remember that liquor store on the Mall. I worked with a buncha freaks at The Soup Kitchen in 1989: Bonehead, Joey McPeak, Jim Ellis, Jay Martin... Anyway, it was a daily occurrence for someone to slip off to the liquor store so we'd have a bottle to pass around in the dishroom. I vaguely remember bussing tables, loaded, and Bonehead passed out in the hall one day. We would also wahoo beers from the walk-in cooler and Ice them down in a bus tray in the dishroom. The strangest thing of all of this is that none of us got fired. Haw! Good times.

[market square district]

just saw the wbir piece. fairly positive. Robin referred to the liquor store as a "piece to the piece to the puzzle." Wayne Blasius and Andie Ray both spoke well. seemed as if the police were the only ones opposed.

[Shinola]

seemed as if the police were the only ones opposed.

Why? If I'm not mistaken, there are these establishments sprinkled throughout downtown that serve booze to the general public outside of their private homes for the purpose of consumption on site. Then they play all sorts of music that inspires these folks to act a-fool and genarally raise a ruckus. Seems to me that a business that serves alcohol for the purpose of consumption in private wouldn't cause the police as much trouble as the former.

But I could be wrong.

[Hildegard]

The Peroulas Fam still owns 37 Market Sq. Gus's is currently run by Charlie Jetter.

The weird part is, I already knew that, but had a brain fart. Harry Caracostis saved my brother-in-law's father's life in the Greek Civil War, and I totally mixed up who had the store on Market Square.

I need another vacation.

Anyway, I mainly wrote that post to plug Vagabondia. Go Andie!

[Ian]

seemed as if the police were the only ones opposed.

I've gotten the impression that another (non-downtown) business owner is decidedly unamused at the prospect of competition for the center city's bottle dollars and has subsequently been making a fair amount of noise about anything that might block a package store on Gay St.

That's hearsay, though, and I'd like to think that the gentleman in question isn't that petty.

[Michael]

seemed as if the police were the only ones opposed.

I've gotten the impression that another (non-downtown) business owner is decidedly unamused at the prospect of competition for the center city's bottle dollars and has subsequently been making a fair amount of noise about anything that might block a package store on Gay St.

That's hearsay, though, and I'd like to think that the gentleman in question isn't that petty.
I've heard the same rumor. But none of that was evident at last night's meeting (I expect that sort of opposition is expressed in private).

As for the cops, their beef consisted solely of concerns over availability of liquor to our street population. There was the "what if" of the proposed store -- envisioned as a high-end wine store -- being sold to a less scrupulous party; or the possibility that the business model might change to meet market demands.

I pointed out that the city provides free trolley service to the street population now to the liquor store on Cumberland. And as another said, these guys will drink mouthwash from J's.

Another attendee pointed out that the street people argument was becoming the tail that wags the dog. And I agree. If the street population is the only concern that the officers could point to, then it's pretty clear that the problem isn't with a liquor store.

It all comes down to the fact that if you draw the boundaries around all of the churches, parks, etc. downtown that are included in the 500' rule contained in the ordinance, it eclipses maybe 90% of downtown.

The rules dont' take into accound density, which really changes the whole scale of things downtown. 500' downtown is not the same as 500' in the burbs (how many people live on your block? I've got a few hundred).

In the end, I think there was a fair amount of concensus that retrofitting the ordinance within the CBID to conform to the same regulations as on-premisis sales (a much more reasonable 50' restriction) would work best. Though there is a school of thought that leaving the restrictions in place as they relate to churches might be the advisable, given that they probably would wield the most political opposition.

I'm optimistic. So long as any changes to the ordinance would only apply to the CBID, I don't think there's any significant opposition among downtown denizens. But as Ian has suggested, there may be some other folks who currently enjoy the bulk of downtowner's business who might not care for the competition.
~m.

[edens]

I have a dim memory from a Beer Board meeting in the distant past when someone - Nick Pavlis, perhaps - mentioned a loophole in the '500 rule for somewhere in East Knoxville (Five Points or Burrlington, I forget...).

Can anybody verify that?

[binR Bishop]

seemed as if the police were the only ones opposed.

I've gotten the impression that another (non-downtown) business owner is decidedly unamused at the prospect of competition for the center city's bottle dollars and has subsequently been making a fair amount of noise about anything that might block a package store on Gay St.



I've heard that too. And it's a fact that he helped block Toddy's planned move closer to his store in Bearden, so I dunno. Maybe true.

[~Rumormonger~]

Hmmm...Maybe y'all should ask yer City Council reps?

[jah]

Isn't there a low-end liquor store on Broadway near the Bellsouth building?

[Michael]

Isn't there a low-end liquor store on Broadway near the Bellsouth building?

I think you're thinking of Raddy's.
But it's not too near the BellSouth Building. It's more like across from the Fellini.
~m.

[Randall]

Is that really old lady from the Women's Christian Temperence Union still alive?

[pmtravis]

Isn't there a low-end liquor store on Broadway near the Bellsouth building?

I know what you're talking about--next to the paint store. I think it's more of a stop 'n' go kinda place for vienna sausages and potato chips. I bet they have beer. But it's got those bars on the windows, which always puts me in the mind of liquor stores (esp. the one on Market Square).

[rikki]

these guys will drink mouthwash from J's.

Hell yeah, liquid lunch today! Thanks for the suggestion.

[pmtravis]

Raddy's

I bet Raddy's ain't skeered of a downtown liquor store. What if we start calling it a "wine barn" or something?

[Ian]

Hmmm...Maybe y'all should ask yer City Council reps?

Not sure what you're suggesting I ask them.

[rikki]

Not sure what you're suggesting I ask them.

Ask them where they buy the vodka to spike the water pitcher at City Council meetings.

[~Rumormonger~]

Hmmm...Maybe y'all should ask yer City Council reps?

Not sure what you're suggesting I ask them.

I dunno, maybe y'all should ask yer Council Members who's been barkin' up their tree 'bout keepin' Downtown wine store free.

[jah]

I know what you're talking about--next to the paint store. I think it's more of a stop 'n' go kinda place for vienna sausages and potato chips. I bet they have beer. But it's got those bars on the windows, which always puts me in the mind of liquor stores (esp. the one on Market Square).
Yes, that's what I was talking about. I've been told it's a liquor store, but maybe I shouldn't trust the word of a 14 year old on it.

And believe me, I know about Raddy's. He (or his son now, I guess) is my liquor supplier of choice.

And boy, if you ask them about the homeless people and liquor, they'll talk your ear off - "you give them money at the (Fellini) Krogers, and they'll come right across the street to us. Don't give them a dime!"

Kind of odd, actually, now that I think about it.

[kag]

Yes, that's what I was talking about. I've been told it's a liquor store, but maybe I shouldn't trust the word of a 14 year old on it.
.


HENRY knows the particulars of the liquor stores in the mission district???!!!

Ack!

[~Rumormonger~]

Here's the Knews Slantinel's take (http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_4827380,00.html) on things.

[jah]

HENRY knows the particulars of the liquor stores in the mission district???!!!

Ack!
well he walks by it all of the time....

[gypsy]

Here's the Knews Slantinel's take (http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_4827380,00.html) on things.


i love how it talks about "unscrupulous liquor sellers" -- as if only "unscrupulous" people sell to winos. there's a lot of stores that only stay open by catering partly to winos.

(and of course, all liquor stores very much depend on alcoholics. it's just that some of them drive drunk in their bmw's to the store, and some of them come in unshaven on foot.)

[DnB]

That little store next to the paint store is a convenience store, not a liquor store.

[JoeVol72]

It never ceases to amaze me what people in this town get on a soapbox about.The archaic bible belt mentality just wears me out!
"Can't put it here!It's too close to a church and a park!"
Exactaly what the hell does that have to do with anything?I mean,are religion and enjoyment of public spaces really going to be that destroyed by a retailer of the" evil demon Alcohol"?

[JoeVol72]

Here's the Knews Slantinel's take (http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_4827380,00.html) on things.

AAAAAAAAUUUUGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Just makes me wanna pull my hair out!

[Georgia]

So, I'm guessing ya'll don't have drive through liquor stores and sales on Sundays, huh?

[~Rumormonger~]

Yeah, I don't get the whole "no package stores near a church" thing. I mean c'mon, if you believe in temperance for reasons of faith and, yet, your faith's not strong enough to keep you temperant, then yer a' goin' ta hell anyways. You ain' gonna fool God with some fake ass Gubmint enforced temperence.

[~Rumormonger~]

And the whole, 500' from a public park thing just screams "why enforce the existing laws when we can pass another one."

[earlnemo]

Yeah, I don't get the whole "no package stores near a church" thing. I mean c'mon, if you believe in temperance for reasons of faith and, yet, your faith's not strong enough to keep you temperant, then yer a' goin' ta hell anyways. You ain' gonna fool God with some fake ass Gubmint enforced temperence.

I'm always reminded of this when the conveinence store clerk insists that my six-pack be bagged, even when it's a box of cans.

Part of this seems to stem from their percieved evangelical mission: to keep the rest of us from sinning, or otherwise having fun.

But the bottom line is: they vote, and otherwise lean on politicians, as a unified group, much more actively than do secular collectives. Plus, these American Mullahs have enormous power relative to their actual representation partly because a great number of us rational secularists are hesitant to push back against the "holy men", even when they are ridiculously wrong.

[adam]

How do you have a meeting about a liquor law. Who ran this thing. Sounds strange to me.