Ken lay is Dead!

[TallGirl]

Ken Lay has died, cause unknown. CNN reports.

[tardisrider]

Suicide, no doubt. Should've kept that fucker locked up the whole time.

[Wombat]

Heart attack.


Ain't karma a bitch?

[F-Stop]

I was just coming to post this very thing.

My guess is suicide or epic stress.

[jeffx]

goodnight sweet prince. may your villainy carry you on little dollar bill wings to your eternal reward.

[TallGirl]

CNN just reported his "heart" gave out last night. I too figured suicide. Don't you have to have a heart to have a heart attack?

[TallGirl]

Ain't karma a bitch?

Karma's a bitch and my names Karma.....

[metulj]

It was Hillary Clinton.

[James]

Maybe if he hadn't been so "heartless", his heart wouldn't have attacked him.

[WhitesCreek]

I wonder if the folks who lost their retirement feel cheated of getting to see him marched off to jail?

[B-Boy]

May have been "payback" for his post-decision courtroom holy roller diatribe that he laid down. Watch out when you try to hide behind a cross, 'cause it may just land on top of you.

[spinetingler]

Do we start getting "people who died connected to Bush" books now?

[Silent K]

I'm guessing that this could be a fake death. Bush is going to have him smuggled out of the Country to a phat villa in Madrid. I know, I know, I'm a consipracy theorist, but would you put something like that past those assholes?

[JohnT]

This is not at all surprising.

[Gina]

Great news to start out the day:)

[Eldo]

His spouse will now get to keep more of what they were trying to garnish for the victims.

[Headless Geisha]

He's still someone's dad and husband and son. I don't think I could say "Great news" when anyone dies. Dickhead and all. I feel like it is a rip off for the retirees. I mean, he didn't really have to pay the price. Although, I'm sure he's paying for something as we speak...

[jeffx]

nah. one less shithead is one less shithead. if nature decides to decrease the surplus shithead population, i can't very well feel any worse for his family than when said shithead was still alive and perpetrating shitheadery.

[straps]

isn't heart attack the stereotypical preferred 'method' of spooks, spies, and enforcers of the illuminati?

[gypsy]

oh well. i guess i feel bad for his family, etc., but there's a lot of other people who've died in the last 24 hours that i'd feel sorrier for. i do wish he'd have had to serve some time, i think it would've been good for him. he might've learned something. as it is, i don't get the sense that he learned much of anything from all this, which is too bad.

[Carl Snow]

isn't heart attack the stereotypical preferred 'method' of spooks, spies, and enforcers of the illuminati?

YUP ... and I had (collected at the gym) a 5 dollar bet riding on him faking a "natural death" ...
NO WAY was that asshole gonna do the time... no way.


mmm 5 Bucks :-) I can get that gallon of gas now lol

[TallGirl]

I'm guessing that this could be a fake death. Bush is going to have him smuggled out of the Country to a phat villa in Madrid. I know, I know, I'm a consipracy theorist, but would you put something like that past those assholes?

Now see, I floated this theory (I am a conspiracy theorist) to my friend Frank this morning. He told me I was crazy. I'm betting if you do an autopsy, you may find something that helped his heart attack along. I'm still not buying it was natural.

[TallGirl]

mmm 5 Bucks :-) I can get that gallon of gas now lol

Sorry dude, it's up tp $5.50 now.....

[TallGirl]

He's still someone's dad and husband and son. I don't think I could say "Great news" when anyone dies. Dickhead and all. I feel like it is a rip off for the retirees. I mean, he didn't really have to pay the price. Although, I'm sure he's paying for something as we speak...

I'll agree with that. Death is never pretty and I do think some of those who lost their life savings would have rather seen him doing time in prison than Hell or wherever he is now.

[fluffy]

nah. one less shithead is one less shithead. if nature decides to decrease the surplus shithead population, i can't very well feel any worse for his family than when said shithead was still alive and perpetrating shitheadery.


kinda depends on what you consider a shithead, dont it? i mean, some people would consider you a shithead probably, but im sure someone would miss you.

[TallGirl]

kinda depends on what you consider a shithead, dont it? i mean, some people would consider you a shithead probably, but im sure someone would miss you.

Even Dahmer's father misses him.....

[metulj]

Death is never pretty
http://childproof.tv/bbs/yukio_mishima.jpg

[Deanna's Daydreamer]

I thank evolution, entrophy, and the ethereal nature of ghosts, angels, valkyries, whatever (tonight's moon worship service was brought to you by Proctor and Gamble, makers of fine toilet tissue)

for one more day on this planet 8 light minutes from a star.

As for one less Ken Lay?

One more reason for a beer after work.

I always find it amusing when the folks down't the hood call it 'passing'.... as if we're just going thru a tunnel. Aunt Bessie 'passed' last year. Pastor Williams did the service when Bling 'passed away' last April.

As an amatuer astronomer whose religious views splattered on the dynamic realisations of the cosmos, I prefer my perception of the concept of 'passing' to be less infomal, a little more brutal, and a helluva lot easier to digest.

Ken Lay is DEAD.

He didn't 'pass away'

or ascend

or go on to his reward. He had a life; he lived his life; now he's DEAD.

And his last ride was free.

http://www.geocities.com/athens/styx/1320/

[jeffx]

kinda depends on what you consider a shithead, dont it? i mean, some people would consider you a shithead probably, but im sure someone would miss you.

well, there's "he gets on my nerves" shitheads and there's "he bilked thousands of families out of millions of dollars" shitheads. i didn't say i don't feel bad for the family, just that i felt as bad for them before his death as i do after.

i feel a whole lot worse for the families he fucked over. they're the ones still dealing with this. i'm sure the lays will figure out a way to cope through their cristal tears.

everyone dies. it's what you do before that counts. if his family mourns, and if others want to try to manufacture some sort of token sympathy for them, that's their prerogative. i bear no such obligation.

[fluffy]

i feel a whole lot worse for the families he fucked over. they're the ones still dealing with this. i'm sure the lays will figure out a way to cope through their cristal tears.

a lot of families lost money. Lay's family lost him. which is worth more? i dont know anything about the man personally, but im sure some are heartbroken at this. i still dont feel right gloating over his death no matter what he did to others financially.

[fluffy]

Death is never pretty


i duno. Superman's death was darn pretty, cinematically speaking.

[metulj]

a lot of families lost money. Lay's family lost him. which is worth more? i dont know anything about the man personally, but im sure some are heartbroken at this. i still dont feel right gloating over his death no matter what he did to others financially.

On 1 March 1757 Damiens the regicide was condemned "to make the amende honorable before the main door of the Church of Paris", where he was to be "taken and conveyed in a cart, wearing nothing but a shirt, holding a torch of burning wax weighing two pounds"; then, "in the said cart, to the Place de Grève, where, on a scaffold that will be erected there, the flesh will be torn from his breasts, arms, thighs and claves with red-hot pincers, his right hand, holding the knife with which he committed the said parricide, burnt with sulphur, and, on those places where the flesh will be torn away, poured molten lead, boiling oil, burning resin, wax and sulphur melted together and then his body drawn and quartered by four horses and his limbs and body consumed by fire, reduced to ashes and his ashes thrown to the winds" (Pièces originales..., 372-4).

"Finally, he was quartered," recounts the Gazette d'Amsterdam of 1 April 1757. "This last operation was very long, because the horses used were not accustomed to drawing; consequently, instead of four, six were needed; and when that did not suffice, they were forced, in order to cut off the wretch's thighs, to sever the sinews and hack at the joints...

"It is said that, though he was always a great swearer, no blashemy escaped his lips; but the excessive pain made him utter horrible cries, and he often repeated: 'My God, have pity on me! Jesus, help me!' The spectators were all edified by the solicitude of the parish priest of St Paul's who despite his great age did not spare himself in offering consolation to the patient."

Bouton, an officer of the watch, left us his account: "The sulphur was lit, but the flame was so poor that only the top skin of the hand was burnt, and that only slightly. Then the executioner, his sleeves rolled up, took the steel pincers, which had been especially made for the occasion, and which were about a foot and a half long, and pulled first at the calf of the right leg, then at the thigh, and from there at the two fleshy parts of the right arm; then at the breasts. Though a strong, sturdy fellow, this executioner found it so difficult to tear away the pieces of flesh that he set about the same spot two or three times, twisting the pincers as he did so, and what he took away formed at each part a wound about the size of a six-pound crown piece.

"After these tearings with the pincers, Damiens, who cried out profusely, though without swearing, raised his head and looked at himself; the same executioner dipped an iron spoon in the pot containing the boiling potion, which he poured liberally over each wound. Then the ropes that were to be harnessed to the horses were attached with cords to the patient's body; the horses were then harnessed and placed alongside the arms and legs, one at each limb.

"Monsieur Le Breton, the clerk of the court, went up to the patient several times and asked him if he had anything to say. He said he had not; at each torment, he cried out, as the damned in hell are supposed to cry out, 'Pardon, my God! Pardon, my Lord.' Despite all this pain, he raised his head from time to time and looked at himself boldly. The cords had been tied so tightly by the men who pulled the ends that they caused him indescribable pain. Monsieur le [sic] Breton went up to him again and asked him if he had anything to say; he said no. Several confessors went up to him and spoke to him at length; he willingly kissed the crucifix that was held out to him; he opened his lips and repeated: 'Pardon, Lord.'

"The horses tugged hard, each pulling straight on a limb, each horse held by an executioner. After a quarter of an hour, the same ceremony was repeated and finally, after several attempts, the direction of the horses had to be changed, thus: those at the arms were made to pull towards the head, those at the thighs towards the arms, which broke the arms at the joints. This was repeated several times without success. He raised his head and looked at himself. Two more horses had to be added to those harnessed to the thighs, which made six horses in all. Without success.

"Finally, the executioner, Samson, said to Monsieur Le Breton that there was no way or hope of succeeding, and told him to ask their Lordships if they wished him to have the prisoner cut into pieces. Monsieur Le Breton, who had come down from the town, ordered that renewed efforts be made, and this was done; but the horses gave up and one of those harnessed to the thighs fell to the ground. The confessors returned and spoke to him again. He said to them (I heard him): 'Kiss me, gentlemen.' The parish priest of St Paul's did not dare to, so Monsieur de Marsilly slipped under the rope holding the left arm and kissed him on the forehead. The executioners gathered round and Damiens told them not to swear, to carry out their task and that he did not think ill of them; he begged them to pray to God for him, and asked the parish priest of St Paul's to pray for him at the first mass.

"After two or three attempts, the executioner Samson and he who had used the pincers each drew out a knife from his pocket and cut the body at the thighs instead of severing the legs at the joints; the four horses gave a tug and carried off the two thighs after them, namely, that of the right side first, the other following; then the same was done to the arms, the shoulders, the arm-pits and the four limbs; the flesh had to be cut almost to the bone, the horses pulling hard carried off the right arm first and the other afterwards.

"When the four limbs had been pulled away, the confessors came to speak to him; but his executioner told them that he was dead, though the truth was that I saw the man move, his lower jaw moving from side to side as if he were talking. One of the executioners even said shortly afterwards that when they had lifted the trunk to throw it on the stake, he was still alive. The four limbs were untied from the ropes and thrown on the stake set up in the enclosure in line with the scaffold, then the trunk and the rest were covered with logs and faggots, and fire was put to the straw mixed with this wood.

"...In accordance with the decree, the whole was reduced to ashes. The last piece to be found in the embers was still burning at half-past ten in the evening. The pieces of flesh and the trunk had taken about four hours to burn. The officers of whom I was one, as also was my son, and a detachment of archers remained in the square until nearly eleven o'clock.

"There were those who made something of the fact that a dog had lain the day before on the grass where the fire had been, had been chased away several times, and had always returned. But it is not difficult to understand that an animal found this place warmer than elsewhere"

[DnB]

for one more day on this planet 8 light minutes from a star.

Don't you mean

8 light minutes from a rather ordinary star....


You're starting to repeat yourself.

[jeffx]

i still dont feel right gloating over his death no matter what he did to others financially.

then don't. i'm not. if anything, like jesse, i think it's a shame he didn't get to serve some time and maybe learn a little something. his dying certainly didn't improve anything.

i'm saying i sympathize with those who are still struggling through lives that this particular shithead made a whole lot more difficult. and i'd say that includes his family, just to a lesser extent.

[~Rumormonger~]

May have been "payback" for his post-decision courtroom holy roller diatribe that he laid down. Watch out when you try to hide behind a cross, 'cause it may just land on top of you.


Matthew 19:24
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God."

[Gray]

Well, I suppose I could be counted in the "shitbaggery" column, as I chuckled to myself when I saw the "Ken Lay is dead" thread placed directly above Katie's "Happy news to share!" thread.

[TallGirl]

i duno. Superman's death was darn pretty, cinematically speaking.

Hey Fluffy, I may have you two bonafide lesbian cheerleaders. I'll post photos later in the week.

[fluffy]

Hey Fluffy, I may have you two bonafide lesbian cheerleaders. I'll post photos later in the week.


gives me something to look forward too later in the week. woot!


thank god no one has started posting bear pics yet.

[Hank IV]

I am sorry that Kenny boy Lay is dead. Sorry for his family. Sorry that so many residents and small businesses in California had their power cut-off or went out of business so Kenny boy, his family and associates could afford one more bottle of Cheateu '59. Sorry that so many people who depended on the jobs and retirement plans from Enron are forced to start over at age 59. Sorry he won't be able to spill the beans on Dick Cheney's secret energy committee. Sorry he can't reveal the secrets of Skull and Bones. Sorry he didn't get anal gang raped in prison. Sorry there won't be an autopsy to find out what the cause of death was. I am happy that he'll get his last ride in a Cadillac Escalade hearse that gets 8 mpg.

[jack frost]

CNN just reported his "heart" gave out last night. I too figured suicide. Don't you have to have a heart to have a heart attack?

So it's okay to make fun of people dying if you didn't like them?

Duly noted.

[JohnT]

LOL!

"Skull and Bones" - that's funny. :D Glad to see I'm not the only one who remembers the fools who said that the fraternity (a FRATERNITY, people!) was in control of the 2004 election? And I thought 9/11 conspiracy theories involving squibs was stupid... :rolleyes:

Of course, anybody who received their 401(k) matching contributions in company stock so that their accounts were overbalanced to the point of 80% invested in Enron and 20% elsewhere had what was coming to them if they didn't sell immediately. Not a damn soul listened to the investment advice they were being bombarded with: Diversify! Buy low, sell high! Cash out and don't look back!

Now that the company has gone under, I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? For what... ignoring what every successful investor has said for 100+ years?

Interesting thing: in November, 2001, the 401(k) plans for all Enron employees were frozen for 30 days due to a previously-scheduled administrative change. The accounts were unfrozen 20 days early (on November 12th) so that the employees could adjust their 401(k)'s given the news. (In the period of the lockout, the price of ENE dropped from $13.125 to $9.675). In the two days after the lockout, with the press whirlwind swirling around the company, the news looking bleaker and bleaker, Enron employees were net buyers of Enron stock.

Nothing, really, brings to a stop the idea that the "average" person is capable of rationally investing for themselves than the image of Enron employees calling in "Buy" orders for a company that is obviously in a tailspin, that had lost $60 in value the previous 6 months, $40 in value the previous 3 months, that had an SEC investigation announced, that the majority knew was, somehow, shady.

[Hank IV]

LOL!

"Skull and Bones" - that's funny. :D Glad to see I'm not the only one who remembers the fools who said that the fraternity (a FRATERNITY, people!) was in control of the 2004 election? And I thought 9/11 conspiracy theories involving squibs was stupid... :rolleyes:

Of course, anybody who received their 401(k) matching contributions in company stock so that their accounts were overbalanced to the point of 80% invested in Enron and 20% elsewhere had what was coming to them if they didn't sell immediately. Not a damn soul listened to the investment advice they were being bombarded with: Diversify! Buy low, sell high! Cash out and don't look back!

Now that the company has gone under, I'm supposed to feel sorry for them? For what... ignoring what every successful investor has said for 100+ years?

Interesting thing: in November, 2001, the 401(k) plans for all Enron employees were frozen for 30 days due to a previously-scheduled administrative change. The accounts were unfrozen 20 days early (on November 12th) so that the employees could adjust their 401(k)'s given the news. (In the period of the lockout, the price of ENE dropped from $13.125 to $9.675). In the two days after the lockout, with the press whirlwind swirling around the company, the news looking bleaker and bleaker, Enron employees were net buyers of Enron stock.

Nothing, really, brings to a stop the idea that the "average" person is capable of rationally investing for themselves than the image of Enron employees calling in "Buy" orders for a company that is obviously in a tailspin, that had lost $60 in value the previous 6 months, $40 in value the previous 3 months, that had an SEC investigation announced, that the majority knew was, somehow, shady.

Sorry I read that knee-deep bullshit. Sorry those people believed what Kenny boy was saying, that it was just a minor downturn and now was the time to buy.

[JohnT]

So... what about the preceeding years? When their accounts were 80% Enron and the stock was riding high? Why didn't they sell then?

My point isn't that they "deserved" losing their money, my point is that they "lost everything" because they worked at Enron and had ENE overwhelmingly in their accounts, in complete defiance and opposition of every single bit of investment advice given out.

Unless you're a principal investor in any given company (like Gates), diversification is the key. They ignored the rules, flouted them, really, and got burned for it. I would be surprised if any of them bothered reading the financials that ENE was putting out, the financials that flatly stated that ENE was engaged in outside partnerships with ENE senior officials.

It's obvious that the people at Clinton's SEC didn't read them, so perhaps I am being a bit too rough. ;)

[metulj]

So... what about the preceeding years? When their accounts were 80% Enron and the stock was riding high? Why didn't they sell then?

My point isn't that they "deserved" losing their money, my point is that they "lost everything" because they worked at Enron and had ENE overwhelmingly in their accounts, in complete defiance and opposition of every single bit of investment advice given out.

Unless you're a principal investor in any given company (like Gates), diversification is the key. They ignored the rules, flouted them, really, and got burned for it. I would be surprised if any of them bothered reading the financials that ENE was putting out, the financials that flatly stated that ENE was engaged in outside partnerships with ENE senior officials.

It's obvious that the people at Clinton's SEC didn't read them, so perhaps I am being a bit too rough. ;)


It's all about personal responsibility(tm).

[Hank IV]

And in Kenny boy's honor, crude oil closed at a new high today of over $75 a barrel. Oh, the irony! 3-2 odds he gets a tanker or off-shore oil rig named after him in less than 2 years.

[metulj]

And in Kenny boy's honor, crude oil closed at a new high today of over $75 a barrel. Oh, the irony!

More importantly: What's natural gas at?

[Hank IV]

More importantly: What's natural gas at?

Down 6% last week, next report out tomorrow

[TallGirl]

And in Kenny boy's honor, crude oil closed at a new high today of over $75 a barrel. Oh, the irony! 3-2 odds he gets a tanker or off-shore oil rig named after him in less than 2 years.

The SS....Lay? Hmmmmmmmmm.

[TallGirl]

Having recently experienced loss, I in no way was celebrating Kenny's death, merely reporting it from a place of great shock. I got a red cube for this thread, so I wanted to clraify. But then, I'm drunk, hurting and about to self-medicate, so sue me......

[earlnemo]

Having recently experienced loss, I in no way was celebrating Kenny's death, merely reporting it from a place of great shock. I got a red cube for this thread, so I wanted to clraify. But then, I'm drunk, hurting and about to self-medicate, so sue me......

Most likely the NSA guy red-cubed you. Don't worry- those really don't count.

Is there shame in appreciating the death of evil? Might mean you're not quite the Buddha, but most of us fall short of that grace. Just keep trying to love the evil. ?

[TallGirl]

Most likely the NSA guy red-cubed you. Don't worry- those really don't count.

Is there shame in appreciating the death of evil? Might mean you're not quite the Buddha, but most of us fall short of that grace. Just keep trying to love the evil. ?

Naw, they just tapped my phone.

BTW, CNN reported that even though the first thought was suicide, prelim. autopsy shows heart disease, no foul play or self-induced death.

[jack frost]

Is there shame in appreciating the death of evil?

Man, the "e" word gets way overused these days.

Ken Lay was probably a bastard and a son-of-a-bitch, but deliberately or conciously evil? That's a mighty harsh indictment.

Then again, I propose that roughly 99.9% of all humans are neither conciously evil or good at all, just running on auto-pilot because their brains haven't been upgraded with the "free will" plug-in.

[gypsy]

i think he was more like a garden-variety greedhead who happened to be in a position at a place and time where such attributes could have particularly ill effects. i don't like greedheads, but greedheadedness alone isn't enough for me to call someone evil.

[binR Bishop]

i don't like greedheads, but greedheadedness alone isn't enough for me to call someone evil.

Um, agreed, but I didn't notice Lay showing any remorse either. That moves him further along the scale toward evil in my book.

[Pecktacular]

He's still someone's dad and husband and son.

When do they all die?

Just kidding, kinda. I'm sure his son will be the one calling the "normal" people poor dorks in high school. And, likewise I'm sure his father had great business ethics, too. This w.a.s.p. patrician shit all runs in the family.

I won't light a candle..

[earlnemo]

Man, the "e" word gets way overused these days.

Ken Lay was probably a bastard and a son-of-a-bitch, but deliberately or conciously evil? That's a mighty harsh indictment.

Then again, I propose that roughly 99.9% of all humans are neither conciously evil or good at all, just running on auto-pilot because their brains haven't been upgraded with the "free will" plug-in.

Ok. If I'm misusing your word "evil" in applying it to Key Lay, what's your definition? Who's evil?

To me, it seems "mighty harsh" to consider virtually all other humans to be incapable of choice and reasoning. Does this mean they have no Soul? Can you tell if I have a soul, or am I not a 1%er like yourself? (ok, I know that was an exaggeration) But how many of us do you think are soul-less?

And back to my original query: Is there shame in appreciating the death of evil? Please use your own definition of evil, but please outline it somehow.

[Gnaw Parker]

There once was a bold man from Houston
Who thought Enron needed a boostin.
He cried, "I can't face the penn.
Have you seen Li'l Kim?!"
And opted instead for vamoosing.

(borrowed from another site)

[Hildegard]

i think he was more like a garden-variety greedhead who happened to be in a position at a place and time ....

To conspire to rip off the life savings of people, and to know exactly what he was doing.

OK, he didn't conceive of the holocaust, and he didn't go around blowing up orphanages, but by my definition of evil (which is not spiritual or related to any devil mumbo jumbo - just a really mean form of slime that will ruthlessly destroy lives in order to advance its own interests) he was evil.

There, I said it. I feel so much stronger.

[edens]

More importantly: What's natural gas at?

Says the man who just bought a big ass Victorian House.

[The Pullet Surprise]

Small solace to his family, I suppose, is that he never spent a moment in stir.

But at the very least, he died a convict.

[TallGirl]

Small solace to his family, I suppose, is that he never spent a moment in stir.

But at the very least, he died a convict.

Actually, according to CNN, that's not true. Since he died BEFORE the sentence was formally put into whatever it is they do to criminals, it's like it never existed. They were talking about how that might legally effect any civil suits. So, technically he died in disgrace, but not as a convict because he wasn't formally sentenced. Or whatever.

Evil: doing something you know is wrong, will intentionally hurt someone etc., w/total disregard for the outcome to others, caring only about yourself. Part of that whole ME philosophy. Lack of presonal responsibility. You can't go around screwing with people's lives (yeah, they went against all logical investment rules, but the CEO tells you it's a slight glitch, what would you think?), feelings or emotions and not suffer at some point.

Was he evil? Yeah. As evil as Hitler? No. Ruthless? Yes, I think so. He showed his true colors on the stand, which was one of the things that hurt him. At any rate, he is out of the sorry existence known as Earth and somewhere else. Heaven? Don't know, not sure that exists. Hell? Maybe Earth is Hell or maybe he's roasting or maybe not. I don't know. I just know his legacy will always be Enron and how people lost money. He could have found the cure for AIDS or funded it, and it will never matter. It will always be ENRON and ppl losing everything. Not a way I'd want to be remembered.

[dilettantedude]

Man, the "e" word gets way overused these days.

Ken Lay was probably a bastard and a son-of-a-bitch, but deliberately or conciously evil? That's a mighty harsh indictment.

Then again, I propose that roughly 99.9% of all humans are neither conciously evil or good at all, just running on auto-pilot because their brains haven't been upgraded with the "free will" plug-in.

I believe people who consciously commit immoral acts are evil in a sort of ordinary sense. Call it evil with a "little e." In that sense Ken lay was evil. He knew better, but he lied and helped pull thousands of naive, loyal and unsuspecting employees under with him. He destroyed lives, many lives, of blameless people. His deeply immoral behavior over years corrupted those close to him, and encouraged some with minor moral flaws to develop major ones. There is compelling evidence his wife and at least one son were corrupted by his immorality over the years. He did all this deliberately, knowingly, and cold-bloodedly.

Frankly, I hope the bastard died hard. As far as I'm concerned, he got off easy. As far as his family goes, I feel neither pity for, nor enmity toward them. We all choose our path, we choose those with whom we associate. We pay whatever price that entails, for whatever karmic reasons might exist or don't, and most likely only our stars are to blame.

Maybe his wife was just simple-minded, maybe, like so many of us have been, she became trapped by circumstance as Lay turned from whatever he was to the evil person he eventually became. I personally think we all deserve little credit or blame for what we accomplish or fail at, what we do to others for for them, because the concept of free will is, imho, philosophically indefensible.

Nevertheless, we live in a society of law. There is a need to hold people personally responsible for their actions. I feel like most of the time we're holding people personally responsible for the whims of gods or a roll of Darwin's Dice, but like so many, I don't know what else to do. However, in Lay's particular case, his death is deeply satisfying to me personally. He corrupted and destroyed everything he touched. The world is a better place without him, and for once the Universe worked like the Greeks preferred to think it should.

[rikki]

Not a damn soul listened to the investment advice they were being bombarded with: Diversify! Buy low, sell high! Cash out and don't look back!

And I thought the gloating over the man's death was tacky...

[gordongekkojr]

Source: Associated Press/AP Online
Publication date: 2006-07-07


By KRISTEN HAYS

HOUSTON - The death of Enron Corp. founder Kenneth Lay will likely cause his conviction to be erased from the record, experts said Thursday.

The 64-year-old executive's sudden death Wednesday from heart disease allows his lawyers to ask the court to vacate his conviction for fraud and conspiracy in Enron's scandal that left thousands jobless and wiped out billions from investors.

What will become of his money and assets, however, is still unclear. If his conviction is erased, that would thwart the government's effort to seize millions prosecutors say he gained from participating in Enron's fraud.

The government wants $43.5 million. Prosecutors suggested he could apply his $5 million condominium and a $6.3 million investment toward that sum. During his criminal trial earlier this year, Lay said he has little else left and still owes his lawyers.

But his assets could remain targets in civil litigation from shareholders and others, including possibly the Justice Department. What if any assets would be targeted hasn't been specified.

Lay and former Enron CEO Jeffrey Skilling were convicted May 25 of fraud and conspiracy for lying to investors and employees about Enron's financial health before the company crashed into bankruptcy protection in December 2001.

Lay was convicted of six counts of fraud and conspiracy, and Skilling was convicted of 19 of 28 counts of fraud, conspiracy, insider trading and lying to auditors. In addition, U.S. District Judge Sim Lake convicted Lay in a separate trial of bank fraud and lying to banks in his personal banking.

Skilling is to be sentenced Oct. 23, and faces a government effort to seize nearly $140 million from him.

Roma Theus, vice chairman of the corporate integrity and white collar crime committee of the Chicago-based Defense Research Institute and a former federal prosecutor, said that because an appeal was pending, Lay's convictions are abated.

"The law views it as though he had never been indicted, tried and convicted," Theus said.

Without that, the government cannot continue its efforts to seize Lay's assets through criminal courts, he said.

David Berg, a Houston civil litigator, said all that's left is a bureaucratic process in which Lay's attorneys can file court papers, with Lay's death certificate, asking Lake to vacate the convictions. If Lake complies as expected, Lay would no longer be a felon.

"His lawyers will move to set aside the conviction, and it'll be done. The slate is wiped clean," Berg said.

Lay's lead lawyer, Michael Ramsey, declined comment Thursday, saying he would make no public statements until he conferred with Lay's family.

But the Justice Department, the Securities and Exchange Commission, and suing shareholders can still pursue at least part of Lay's estate through civil courts. Berg said Lay's wife, Linda, legally owns half of Lay's estate, and at least her half - if not part of his - is exempt from seizure.

During his trial, Lay testified that his net worth - which reached about $400 million before Enron failed - had fallen to a negative $250,000 and he still owed legal bills. The condominium he and his wife own in one of Houston's most exclusive high-rises had been frozen since he was indicted two years ago.

Lay and Skilling are among defendants in a conglomerate of shareholder lawsuits. When they were convicted, William Lerach, attorney for the lead plaintiff, the University of California, said the two men likely would be left with nothing for shareholders to recover because of the government's aim to seize their assets.

On Thursday, Lerach said the university hadn't decided whether to pursue its claim against Lay's estate.

"Unlike the criminal area, where the criminal conviction disappears upon the death of the person, the civil liability does not disappear," he said.

The university's litigation, filed weeks before Enron failed in 2001 and later joined by other lawsuits, originally named dozens of defendants. That list has been whittled to 21 - 14 individuals, including Lay and Skilling; five banks and brokerages; former Enron auditor Arthur Andersen LLP; and Enron's former outside law firm, Vinson & Elkins LLP.

So far, that litigation has secured more than $7 billion in settlements - with interest - mostly from banks.

"Ken Lay is not the place to go to get restitution to the victims at this point," said Sam Buell, a former prosecutor. "If they're going to get anything, it's going to come from the deep pockets, like the banks."

One of the original defendants, former Enron executive Cliff Baxter, committed suicide in January 2002. The litigation later dropped his estate as a defendant.

Lay died early Wednesday while vacationing with his wife near Aspen, Colo. Dr. Robert Kurtzman, Mesa County coroner in Grand Junction, Colo., said an autopsy showed Lay had severely clogged coronary arteries.

Funeral arrangements for Lay were pending Thursday. His family released a statement late Wednesday that said a memorial service would be held at Houston's First United Methodist Church, but a date had yet to be set.

[fluffy]

And I thought the gloating over the man's death was tacky...

eh, its what happens when you put the dollar above everything else in your life.


whats funny is that somehow all this is the investors' faults, not ken lays. ya know most companies ive worked for that offered stock, the point was you were supposed to have faith and trust your company, that was part of the deal of offering the employees a stock option plan. then ken lay comes along and lies about the company's economic forecasts, and its the stockholder's fault they lost all their money?! i understand that there were warnings out there about the company that things werent as rosy as ken was making it out to be. but think what that would do for morale within the company and the rifts that would be caused if every company had the same rumors and speculation. arent you supposed to have faith in your bosses? now should every employee and every company start dumping their stock in lieu of what ken did? is that the precendent that has been set, since apparently this ordeal was the investors faults? i just find it funny that some are more willing to blame the investors who were acting of faith instead of the shithead who is at the heart of all this. but im sure to some out there, lay is still a hero to look up to, regardless(or maybe because) of what he did. im sure the real gordon gekko would be proud. im sure some think the only thing he did wrong was get caught.

[binR Bishop]

I said it over on Bubba's blog, and I'll say it again. My basic thought on Ken Lay is that karma's a bitch.

[fluffy]

I said it over on Bubba's blog, and I'll say it again. My basic thought on Ken Lay is that karma's a bitch.

well thank you, Earl.

[binR Bishop]

well thank you, Earl.

That's Earlene to you.

[Deanna's Daydreamer]

You're exactly right.

It's what you DID in your life.

It's not enough to just put on a good suit for the Sunday Fashion Show and Pep Rally (sermon in the hood + 'eatin meetin' complete with fried chicken afterwards) and then live like a dog until the next one.

Ken Lay was a CROOK.

He died a CONVICTED... crook.

He cost a lot of good, hardworking, honest people tons of their money.

If he'd gotten AWAY with it
he'd still be in Texas
shaving his face in the mirror
and thinking that he is

KEN LAY... BIG SHOT.

He's piece of SH*T. Dead or not. The whole concept of why we have to be 'forgiving' of a corpse just because it is a corpse was probably promoted by a primitive people who were just as likely to think that walking under a ladder is bad 'luck'

or that a black cat crossing in front of you means you'll have a terrible event in your life. Meanwhile, you got some stupid half witted sherriff's deputy shooting black cats in from his patrol car.

I delcine to obey some ridiculous notion that just because Ken Lay is dead I can not call him a jackass when every damn one of us knows that he WAS. "Respect for the dead" is just superstition bullshit, just like Jeremiah Johnson had to sweat going thru the indian burial grounds.

What is more amazing to me than super ridiculous notions of mankind's obsession with self, self promotion and the ID... is that science has not yet found a way to explain to the people.... HEY! The freakin' sun does NOT revolve around the earth! OK? You dorks burning the feet of the scientists will not make a telescope tell you what you want to see. If it took the suckass catholic church untill 1993 to formally apologize to Galileo Galilei then it MIGHT be a possibility that they have been wrong about a whole lot more than that.... dig me?

The irony is that I think this prick committed suicide knowing damn well he was headed to a prison, but we will never know that because it'll be covered up. Sure was convenient, though. Never served a day in jail for what he did? Damn shame, I say. But the fact he's bought the farm? Hell, he probably deserved that and more. I might have had some respect for him if he had come clean and come FORWARD, freely admitting what he did. He didn't do that! Oh, NOoooo! He denied he did anything wrong, and when the best of money to the best of lawyers couldn't BUY his way outta the bat guano? He bailed out in suicide.

And that whole religion bullsh*t press conference he gave. "Well, Ken.... stay on this cloud and we'll send a representative down here to explain all the rules. Enjoy your stay in Valhalla, Nirvana, Heaven, or whatever the ^%$# you'd like to call the joint."