The new formal garden

[Georgia]

Ok, all you plant people.... I'd really appreciate your input with our new garden. Last weekend, Rick got the final planks into the forms and we've got our outline for the beds.

We're trying to be somewhat historically accurate with the plantings...so, we are planning to do some structural plantings outlines in yaupon hollies and then either perennial or annuals.

We've got a seating porch (very customary in Federal homes up this way) that's about halfway done (it's a replacement based on the markings we found after the plastic siding was removed from the house.)

But, what do you "see" as good options? Should we anchor the segments with a rose or gumdrop boxwood? Or, do more of a knot garden with herbs? I've got a kitchen garden with my herbs to the right of formal garden...and, I'll disclose that I'm not too great with keeping roses alive and healthy looking.

We're considered a zone 7...


Any suggestions would be great!

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/Athens86/DavidMidstateLiving025.jpg

[Gnaw Parker]

Man I'm so jealous. What an awesome project. And I love the structure. I have no advice on the plantings, but I'm here to cheer you on!

[metulj]

http://www.brockport.edu/~theatre/feedme.jpg

[Raincrow]

Regardless of vegetation choices, design-wise, you can't go wrong with the classic lozenge pattern. Easy to add to later.

[Gnaw Parker]

I have to say I love the boxwood borders on these gardens, but how long does that take to establish?

[Georgia]

I have to say I love the boxwood borders on these gardens, but how long does that take to establish?

Eh, a while...they really do take time.
But, I think I want really low ones and if we go with smaller plants and pack them on in...I'm betting we could have something pretty decent in five years or so.

I had been thinking about a globe thyme or a creeping rosemary as a faster alternative to outlining the beds...but, I think the year round structure a boxwood outline could offer would be a good thing.

[rikki]

Am I the only person who thinks boxwoods give off a horrible odor?

[jah]

Am I the only person who thinks boxwoods give off a horrible odor?
yes.

[Georgia]

yes.

Never noticed a negative odor associated with boxwood hedges...do you notice the smell when a branch is broken or just being around the shrub? (What I had noticed was a bit of a urine smell that I'd always just assumed was a previous gift from a neighboring dog.)

I'd like to get my hands on a cutting off the boxwoods at Mount Vernon. I think they found cuttings off the original boxwoods in one of the wells on the property and they were able to start growing the actual boxwoods...

[Daizy]

Wow, that's beautiful and I'm also jealous. Here I am trying to figure out where to put a few iris and,...well...I feel inadequate. ;) You go, girl. And the husband, too!

Rosemary could be good and I'm guessing that there are cultivars out there that lend themselves to x-mas tree shape - a shorter evergreen. They could probably also "hedge" if packed in and then you avoid the boxwood odor. (Yes, I also think they have an odor).

Too much fun! How about a couple pairs of tea roses incorporated into the center? If you're willing to go a little fussy, they might be easier kept if they're together. I don't too well with roses either, I went to a shrubrose last year for low maintenance. A wild carpet-rose?

[Georgia]

How about a couple pairs of tea roses incorporated into the center? If you're willing to go a little fussy, they might be easier kept if they're together. I don't too well with roses either, I went to a shrubrose last year for low maintenance. A wild carpet-rose?


Yeah, we can make this a little fussy as the garden backs up to the living room in the house.
With our third move, I inherited some amazing roses and did so-so by them-with this move I got some hedge roses and some climbing Queen Elizabeth roses for this place and it's a japaneze beetle black spot haven.

I'm still thinking a cental hardscape of a boxwood or rose in the middle of each geometric shape...in the center one for certain.

The paths are going to be done in English pea gravel so I wanted a good contrast with color in the plantings. I didn't know about globe thyme- if it might be a tender perennial or not-

I'm thinking (in time) bulbs for the Spring then over plant with annuals or perennials...just don't know which herbs and plants to go with.

The weather can be brutal as I lost both of my hydrangeas this winter-but, some of the herbs that are normally annuals are doing great.

Do you order your roses in from J&P or do you purchase from a nursery or other store? Any rose(or other) tips you can share would be very apreciated!

[fluffy]

people who have yards all suck, mainly cause i dont have one lol. i do need to find out what does grow down here though. we found one garden center that has palms of different kinds cheap, and so are cacti. id like to try growing some hibiscus, but outside of that i need to figure out what i wont kill by the heat and sun.

kag, the garden looks most awesome, btw.

[Tess]

You beat me to it, Daizy. I was going to suggest miniature roses. You cannot find a more agreeable plant. They require almost no maintenance and produce beautiful flowers. I have one in my front bed that is about 10 years old that has been shamefully neglected, yet it faithfully produces beautiful red roses every year. I have started two new ones in a clay container on my deck.

I think mini-roses would be pretty in the outer parameter of your formal garden, Georgia, also, lavender. How about Irish moss in an inner space?

[Georgia]

You beat me to it, Daizy. I was going to suggest miniature roses. You cannot find a more agreeable plant. They require almost no maintenance and produce beautiful flowers. I have one in my front bed that is about 10 years old that has been shamefully neglected, yet it faithfully produces beautiful red roses every year. I have started two new ones in a clay container on my deck.

I think mini-roses would be pretty in the outer parameter of your formal garden, Georgia, also, lavender. How about Irish moss in an inner space?


I think mini-roses would be a good choice... there's also an area in front of the formal garden that will be English peagravel and I'd like to do various specimen pots of flowers in a still life look.
Lavender is a good suggestion...again, I've killed it by plant and seed...but, I'm ready for another try. Tess, have you ever made the lavender bodkins that you weave with ribbons and turn into sachets?

So, ya'll really think miniature roses would be sturdy enough? If so, that sounds promising.

Irish moss...not familiar with it, but I looked it up. Have you grown it before? Can you contain it or train it to an area or does it do better in a large open space?

[Tess]

I think Irish moss is beautiful, but it must like sun. I tried it in the shade and it, sadly, passed away.

The Gatlinburg Inn had a row of miniature roses in front for years. So, they must do okay in colder climates. Knoxville is very temperate lately in the winter.

My "big" miniature is right against the house, in full sun. The little ones in the clay pot overwintered fine. Their leaves are going from bronze to green. My dad raises the larger roses and pampers them. The mini's are tough and don't require anything special, though they might appreciate it!

I haven't made the lavender sachets, but have bought them, and I haven't had the best of luck with lavender either, though I love it. What's the trick to it, Raincrow?

[kag]

That's really cool, Georgia. I love the idea of climbing tea roses or something.

I want to re-do my driveway in pea gravel.

[Georgia]

That's really cool, Georgia. I love the idea of climbing tea roses or something.

I want to re-do my driveway in pea gravel.


I can suggest Jackson & Perkin's climbing Queen Elisabeth roses if you are looking for a pink climber...we added them to the split rail fence near the barn. (They're gorgeous when they bloom-I just wish I could get them to bloom longer.)

We had a gravel drive until year before last year's snow season and Rick was out for two days trying to dig us out...we now have an asphalt drive to the house and the stretch to the barn is still gravel.

There's a great crushed base that helps it all pack down (if you go with the pea gravel driveway)....and, I can't remember what it is. I'm sure your garden guru will know... Oh,your new look is coming along great! By the end of the summer it should be all lush and filled in-please keep the progress pics coming.

I so wished we lived nearer and could all share plants. You know, have a bar-b-q and have everyone bring extra plants and make a day out of eating, drinking, listening to music and plant swapping. Ya'll should try that...I find that plants or seeds given to me by friends seem to grow better and I always get a smile out of the plants when I see them coming back year after year...the tarragon from Julia, the comfrey from Karen, the sweet William from Sloan...that kind of thing.

[Tess]

They call the gravel driveway base "crusher-run" around here.

I would love to swap plants with you Georgia. A gardening friend is a friend indeed.

And, if somebody shares a plant with you, you always think about them when you see the plant.

[pixeljockey]

Am I the only person who thinks boxwoods give off a horrible odor?

they smell awful to me and remind me of cemeteries. but i do like the way they look.

[Raincrow]

Boxwoods are great to hide in, though.

Tess--I have an itty bitty lavender patch but it's kind of an orphan herb to me. If you can't eat it, drink it or it keeps bugs away, I don't use it. I'm pretty sure lavender only needs good sun and well-drained soil to thrive, though. The soil has to be worked up, of course, as with pretty much everything.

[Daizy]

I'm pretty sure lavender only needs good sun and well-drained soil to thrive, though. The soil has to be worked up, of course, as with pretty much everything.

Yea, lavender doesn't like to have wet feet - I think part of the issue when it doesn't thrive also has to do with keepping those roots warm.. I saw a friend's garden bed where they had added play sand around the roots to try to keep the heat at the base of the plant.

Georgia, regarding rose purchases, I usually just go local. Might check the innernets and see if you find one in particular you like for ordering - or call the higher-end nurseries and see what they suggest for your needs. They would probably have a handle on what works in your area.

[Daizy]

I was going to suggest miniature roses. You cannot find a more agreeable plant. They require almost no maintenance and produce beautiful flowers. I have one in my front bed that is about 10 years old that has been shamefully neglected, yet it faithfully produces beautiful red roses every year.

I grew up with a pink carpet rose in the backyard, that wound up being incorporated into the rock berm at the patio. It was never tended in any way, either. I used to have a neighbor with a shrub rose - same deal, no care and it thrived. After two failures with more expensive "real" roses, I made the switch. Hope the ones in the containers also do well for you, Tess.

[Gnaw Parker]

So I've had this week off and I've spent most of my spare time tearing out a 30+ foot long bed of ivy alongside my house. I'm finally at the stage where the roots can be dug out and I've gotten maybe a ten foot section looking the way I want.
Here's before:
http://i2.tinypic.com/vgo6xz.jpg

And here's an inbetween stage:
http://i2.tinypic.com/vgo9jc.jpg

And here's some reward:
http://i2.tinypic.com/vgoa6x.jpg

I have a ton of ivy around the front of my property and while I don't mind it for some settings, it can be a royal pain. I'm leaving the side hill partially covered because I think it looks pretty and I like mowing paths through it:
http://i2.tinypic.com/vgocon.jpg

Lots more to do, but I thought I'd let you know that you guys have been good inspiration this week.

[Georgia]

Gnaw, it looks great!
You got a lot cleared out...looks like your peonies are at about the same stage ours our. Ivy is a hard thing to move out of an area. The front of your home looks so lush and healthy...my childhood home was on a very shaded lot and we had areas of ivy and vinca under the pine trees...your picture reminded me of that.

Rick did a lot of rock moving today...I'll post some pictures tomorrow when it is light.

[Gnaw Parker]

Actually, the building in the last photo is the workshop that came with my house. I'm afraid I've neglected it somewhat in the last five years. The family that owned my house before me ran a newspaper called the Knoxville Independent which was a labor party paper around the turn of the century. It's still being published these days, but now it's primarily a four page legal rag that posts claims on estates and such. (An interesting aside: when my husband first moved to town from Virginia, he was looking for a newspaper job and saw the Knoxville Independent in the phone book. He got the address and drove up to the house but decided not to knock because it's, well, a house. I had just moved in a month before and would've been the one to answer the door if he had knocked.)
I've got a few smaller ivy beds in the front of the house that need work, but one is housing a snake family of six at present and I'm not sure I want to tangle with them.

[Georgia]

Actually, the building in the last photo is the workshop that came with my house. I'm afraid I've neglected it somewhat in the last five years. The family that owned my house before me ran a newspaper called the Knoxville Independent which was a labor party paper around the turn of the century. It's still being published these days, but now it's primarily a four page legal rag that posts claims on estates and such. (An interesting aside: when my husband first moved to town from Virginia, he was looking for a newspaper job and saw the Knoxville Independent in the phone book. He got the address and drove up to the house but decided not to knock because it's, well, a house. I had just moved in a month before and would've been the one to answer the door if he had knocked.)
I've got a few smaller ivy beds in the front of the house that need work, but one is housing a snake family of six at present and I'm not sure I want to tangle with them.


I love stories of fate. That's a wonderful story-
To have a workshop would be such fun...our barn is way past the point of using as a workshop-great as a barn tho. (We seriously talked about building a workshop and store for me that would mimic an outbuilding...but, costs were amazingly prohibited.)

Don't blame you in the least for letting the snakes have some time to relocate. I'm not a snake person either.

[Georgia]

Drat. My battery on the laptop is being contrary and officially won't recharge. (Help? Someone? It appears electricity is going through the adapter...just not making connection to the laptop?)

The garden is looking lovely...all the photo software is on my laptop so you'll have to take my word for it.

[Gnaw Parker]

Dangit Georgia, I wanna see the plants. Is your computer still acting up?
I got the bed finished yesterday. Here's a photo of the end result. It'll look much better once the new hydrangea grows up and the peonies bloom.

http://i3.tinypic.com/vp7p89.jpg

[Georgia]

Dangit Georgia, I wanna see the plants. Is your computer still acting up?
I got the bed finished yesterday. Here's a photo of the end result. It'll look much better once the new hydrangea grows up and the peonies bloom.

http://i3.tinypic.com/vp7p89.jpg


That looks really great! You got a lot done...I love it when stuff fills in and all the plants kind of melt into each other. Our hydrangeas got taken all the way back to the ground this winter...I'm going to miss them this blooming season.
Yep, the computer with all my pic software is still down...I'm hopeful to get a prognosis tomrrow. (You're not missing out on any plants- we're still in the gravel walkway stage.)
Oh...be on the lookout for your package! Finally!

[Georgia]

Gnaw,
Here are a couple of during pictures from the weekend...I'll add more once all the rock is down.
I think we're going with yaupon hollies around the fenceline, a large trimmed cone holly in the center of the planting bed and a gumdrop shaped boxwood in the center of each of the four beds.
I'm still trying to decide what plants to go in...maybe red geraniums and herbs? I'm open to suggestions....

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/Athens86/DSCF0051.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/Athens86/DSCF0050.jpg

[Gnaw Parker]

I love how that chair fits perfectly between the framing. It makes me think of Great Expectations. I can just see Miss Havisham in an electrified wheelchair careening around the maze with her bridal rags getting snagged in the wheels.

It looks great Georgia. I wish I could help you with plants, but I totally wing it at the nurseries.

[DnB]

Georgia,
That garden design is most impressive.
Wow.
I can't wait to see how it looks when you're done.:)

[Mykhailo]

Wow. That's really, really cool Georgia.

Don't have any references handy unfortunately, but, at least in Tidewater Virginia (Williamsburg and such), native plants were used frequently in formal gardens. Wild blue indigo and black-eyed susans are the only two species that are coming to the surface of my memory banks, but there were plenty of others.

I'm the one man tourism board of the city of Richmond, so at this point I feel obligated to suggest a trip down to the Virginia State Library to check out their extensive archives of landscape archaeology. Richmond is lovely this time of year. Of course, it is every day, but it's even more lovlier now, if that's possible. You missed the weirdo Monument Avenue Easter parade, but there's always plenty of things to do there.

[Georgia]

I love how that chair fits perfectly between the framing. It makes me think of Great Expectations. I can just see Miss Havisham in an electrified wheelchair careening around the maze with her bridal rags getting snagged in the wheels.

It looks great Georgia. I wish I could help you with plants, but I totally wing it at the nurseries.

I'd love to say we planned the chair to fit exactly so...but, it just happened that way. Ah, Miss Havisham! I need to reread that book- thanks for the reminder.
I think we'll do the whole traditional colonial Williamsburg garden kind of thing for the plantings...it's fun trying to figure out what goes where. I'll share the next installment of rock placement. (Since Rick knows I'm posting the progress, the garden has gone in at a much speedier rate than previous do it yourself projects...I'll definitely need to remember that for when we begin painting the exterior of the old place.)

[Gnaw Parker]

(Since Rick knows I'm posting the progress, the garden has gone in at a much speedier rate than previous do it yourself projects...I'll definitely need to remember that for when we begin painting the exterior of the old place.)

That's pretty funny.

[Georgia]

Wow. That's really, really cool Georgia.

Don't have any references handy unfortunately, but, at least in Tidewater Virginia (Williamsburg and such), native plants were used frequently in formal gardens. Wild blue indigo and black-eyed susans are the only two species that are coming to the surface of my memory banks, but there were plenty of others.

I'm the one man tourism board of the city of Richmond, so at this point I feel obligated to suggest a trip down to the Virginia State Library to check out their extensive archives of landscape archaeology. Richmond is lovely this time of year. Of course, it is every day, but it's even more lovlier now, if that's possible. You missed the weirdo Monument Avenue Easter parade, but there's always plenty of things to do there.

Richmond, huh? Yep, that's not too far down the road. I'm trying to remember one of my reference books (I think it's Plants of Colonial Williamsburg)-I've been using that as a guide for the kitchen cutting/herb garden that is next to this formal garden.
The house dates to 1770 (although I have found slipware from the 1750's so we're not sure if the house is older...we've got pit-sawn beams in the basement that may place it earlier) and we're trying to keep the landscaping in keeping with the house.
We tend to use books fshowcasing the Mid-Atlantic as well as Jefferson and Washington's agrarian thoughts as we put things into the landscape. I prefer old fashioned and tough heirloom plants so it makes it a comfortable fit.
We've got Winterthur and Longwood to offer...let me know if you want to roadtrip up this way some time. We always tailgate at the Point to Point at Winterthur if you think you might lilke a steeplechase.

Again, thanks for the info for Richmond. I wasn't aware of the library's offerings.

[Georgia]

That's pretty funny.

Yeah, I think so too.

He's such a perfectionist...which, can be wonderful-unless you're trying to fix up an old house.
He built the fence around the garden...hand cut each plank. The posts can't just be sunk into the ground...they're cemented in and held perfectly plumb until set. The paint can't be applied...two layers of oil-based primer had to be put on before the painting could be done. He's hand forging the latches and hinges for the gates (he picked up blacksmithing so he could make pieces we needed for the house).

I'm working on a design to do a Rufus Poter style mural in the dining room. I somehow think that'll get finished before we have gates for the gardens.

Working on old houses is like pulling a thread on a sweater...you go to fix something and while you're working on it you realize there are three other pieces that need to be done before you can properly complete the one task that you started with it's a huge unraveling process...but, I love this old place..it feels like home.

[DnB]

Georgia, how old is your house and is it one story or two?
We've got a 100+ yr old Victorian we're trying to fix up.
I'm interested in the exterior painting you are going to do.
Will you paint it yourself?

[Georgia]

Georgia, how old is your house and is it one story or two?
We've got a 100+ yr old Victorian we're trying to fix up.
I'm interested in the exterior painting you are going to do.
Will you paint it yourself?


It's a Federal (telescope style) and the newest section is around 1800 and it's two and a half stories. The oldest part is the 1770/1750 and it's two stories.

The brick was made about a quarter of a mile away from the house- but, it was oyster-shell whitewashed at some point. I'm guessing at the time of the second portion being completed because the bricks didn't match?
(We've got some glazed brick mixed in and a flemish bond pattern but nothing like a date.)
Previous owners had put plastic vinyl siding over the brick and we just took it off last year. They used a nail gum to put up the strips the siding was attached to so the house looks like it was shot all over. I've started scraping loose paint but we'll need someone to really do a heavy scrape down and a proper prime before they start on the painting. We can't do a pressure washer because of the salmon brick and the flaking.
Long story short, we'll most likely help out...but get someone who knows that they are doing to do the actual painting. The millwork is holding pretty well- we weren't sure since it was vinyl clad as well. We did lose some molding but found a craftsman who made a match of the existing pieces.

So, I take it ya'll are in a Victorian? They can be such fun when it comes to picking paint colors...not as much fun in the actual painting process! All the turnings and gingerbread trims really take time. If you are wanting to do a paint analysis to see what were your original colors, I'd be glad to pull up the info I found on the subject and send it to you. It's an easy enough process- basically mailing some paint flakes to the lab.

[Daizy]

Georgia, it looks great. Thanks for posting the new pic.



Previous owners had put plastic vinyl siding over the brick.

Oh good grief. Bless your heart.

[Georgia]

Latest installment...

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/Athens86/DSCF0055.jpg

[Tess]

You could make it a big face, Georgia! Fill in the bottom sections with small nandina, in a curved line, since they have a red cast, and surround the top shrubs with lavender to make blue eyes.

You might get some messages from outer space!!!!

(Sorry, just being silly. It looks great!)

[Georgia]

Almost finished-
Rick has been working non-stop the past couple of days to get everything planted.
I'm gonna brag on him- I think he's done a really great job.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/Athens86/DSCF0061.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/Athens86/DSCF0062.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/Athens86/DSCF0064.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f134/Athens86/DSCF0065.jpg

[Gnaw Parker]

This reminds me...time for new pictures Georgia.

Also, from my herb garden this morning. Two really beautiful caterpillars going to town on my dill.

http://i6.tinypic.com/14l4un6.jpg

[Georgia]

Gnaw,
That's a great picture! I love the colors- we always lose our dill to the caterpillars, too. I plant it knowing it's going to be devoured-
I've got some interesting outdoor pics I'll post once we get back- I love the combo of finding shells as well as pine cones on the beach. I find the two to be both comforting as well as odd.

[Randall]

Almost finished-
Rick has been working non-stop the past couple of days to get everything planted.
I'm gonna brag on him- I think he's done a really great job.


Very cool.

[Georgia]

How the garden is progressing-

http://f10.putfile.com/thumb/8/22320214820.jpg (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/22320214820.jpg&s=f10)


http://f10.putfile.com/thumb/8/22320223386.jpg (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/8/22320223386.jpg&s=f10)

[Gnaw Parker]

Wow, that looks amazing. Great job you guys.

[Georgia]

Wow, that looks amazing. Great job you guys.

Thanks. I'll pass it along to Rick- he's done the lionshare of the work.

I just noticed today that the border plantings are really beginning to fill on in and start to look established. I'll need to come up with something good to do with all the thyme and rosemary.
The lavender he put in is blooming like crazy. I need to make lavender bodkins for my unmentionables drawers.

(Oh, I think your dill caterpiller has moved north to our garden. Our parsley is pretty much munched to the ground and we found a very satisfied looking caterpiller within the stems.)

[jah]

WOW!!!! I am just blown away by how great that looks, Georgia!

[jah]

Whoops! This is actually Katie posting ;-)

Gotta remember to log Jon out when I am using his computer....